Avro Propeller

[bigshep]

Hi

I appreciate that this is an American forum but this seems to be the only resource that can help me!

I inherited this Avro prop from my late Grandfather (unfortunately it has a clock in it). It's length is around 8'2" and it has many markings of which I have taken pictures.

Can anyone give me any information on this?

Thanks in advance.

[bigshep]

More Avro prop pics

Here are a couple more pictures

[Dave]

See this gallery photo for more information. Note that the gallery propeller has a slightly shorter actual size compared to the design size of 2744 mm, indicating that the tips have been cut down somewhat, usually from prop damage. Using that diameter as a reference, yours should be 2744 mm, or 9 feet in length, which also suggests that the tips have been cut down. That would also explain the squared off appearance to the ends, which is not typical of the AV Roe propellers I've seen, including this one.

Since the photos can be hard to read with respect to the stampings, can you indicate what they are? I see a "D 1137", which doesn't make sense as a diameter since it only equals about 45 inches. I don't know the significance of the "Martinsyde" notation, but it may have been applicable to that aircraft instead of the AVRO 504.

Where is the clock? If the tips indeed have NOT been cut down, and the only remant of hub alteration is a brass hanging device, then it would still be considered in nearly original condition, particularly with the decals.

[bigshep]

Thanks for getting back to me Dave.

The base stampings state 1930 pitch and 2500 diameter.
On the back we have Avro V8 30HP (is that a reference to horse power and engine setup??) along with 'GNOME' and 'MARTINYDES 600UT'.

The clock is on the face and I have attached a couple of pictures of that as well; what sort of period is this likely to be?

Thanks again

[Dave]

OK, in that case ingnore the previous comments about the AVRO 504. Your propeller is substantially intact, as it looks as if someone had the wisdom or good fortune to mount the clock on the REAR of the hub, where any alterations won't show in a normal display. (The rear of the propeller will usually be almost flat, in comparison to the front facing portion which will usually have a curved surface, much like an aircraft wing in aerodynamic design.)


Despite the spelling anomolies, your propeller was almost certainly intended for use on the Martinsyde S1 Scout, 60 of which were built in 1916. The diameter of 2500 mm corresponds to its present diameter of 8' 2" and indicates that the tips are original, i.e. not cut down due to damage as I had originally thought.

I can't explain the presence of the Y80 drawing number, which clearly corresponds to the AVRO 504, as usually a specific drawing number would be associated with a specific planaform, diameter, and pitch. Perhaps Bob Gardner can shed more light on this, as it really is a bit unusual.

As far as the stamped information, based on the spelling of "Martinydes 600UT" as likely representing "Martinsyde Scout", I would suggest that perhaps "V8 30 HP" may be "MS 80 HP" which could describe the 80 HP Gnome engine by its other designation as MonoSoupape, for "single valve". I'm nearly certain that the "30" shoud be an "80", based on the other information. Look closely to see if any of those explanations might fit . . .

Suffice it to say that you have a very elegant, substantially original early WW1 propeller in otherwise excellent condition that should be kept in that condition forever, if possible.

EDIT:

I see now on looking at the photos that the stamped information on the face is "AVRO Y 8? 80 HP Gnome", which fits the Martinsyde Scout. Bob Gardner has previously commented on the seemingly common finding that some of these manufacturers must have hired buffoons to do the stampings, and the Martinsyde Scout stamping is a perfect example of that.

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings,


Congratulations on having such a lovely prop. It's one of the best British WW1 props that I have seen for some time, both for condition and for the amount of data stamped on it.

By the way, although founded by two Americans (Dave Bahnson and MWP Lamar) the forum is international. We have a strong European component. One of our contributors is French and the leading expert on French WW1 props. We have regular contributors from; Poland, Austria, the Netherlands, Germany, France, and from outside Europe; Australia, NZ, South Africa, Brazil and Mexico spring instantly to mind.

Your prop is most interesting. As Dave mentions, Y80 was the drg no solely for the Avro 504. I have two Avro drg nos listed for the Martinsyde S1 Scout;
Y36 D2600 P1700
Y86 D2500 P1930
(Lang also had two drg nos LP380 and LP5270A)

So, it seems that the drg no of your prop is Y86, where Y indicates Avro. This is the later drg no which matches the late date of the prop. The S1 was delivered in 1914 and 1915, but replacement props were needed continuously and yours has the calibration data from the RAF (which indicates the Royal Aircraft Factory) and is dated 12 January 1917. Note that they failed to get 80hp out of the 80hp Gnome engine, recording 78hp at 1130rpm.

Treat your prop with care. It is a valuable historical artefact. I don't necessarily mean in terms of money, although the value of RFC items will increase considerably from 2014 to 2018. Polish it occasionally with pure beeswax out of a tin. Don't use beeswax from an aerosol, nor any polish. They contain modern silicones which are too powerful for finishes which are a hundred years old.

With kind regards,

Bob

[MWP_Lamar]

I want to go on the record stating that Dave is the sole founder of this Forum. It was originally his idea and he has worked tirelessly on the software that makes the Forum possible. Dave deserves 100% of the credit for this ambitious and useful undertaking.

Lamar

[bigshep]

Many many thanks for your input and knowledge guys, I sincerely appreciate it. It doesn't add much in terms of sentiment but, as I am ex royal air force, I am fascinated by this era.

Kind regards

[bigshep]

I am imagining that this prop won't be automatically covered on my contents cover. Will I need to add this as a separate item? I'm a bit concerned about it now given what you have told me!!

Is it true that between all the Scout variants they only built around 65?

[MWP_Lamar]

I am imagining that this prop won't be automatically covered on my contents cover. Will I need to add this as a separate item?

You need to check with your insurance agent for the details of your policy.

Lamar

[s_ripple]

Arvo 504k

Hello Dave,
I have been reading your post avidly this past year and have found a propeller that has piqued my interest. I'm not familiar with the seller so I am reluctant to jump in. I do not yet have pics but there is an old plaque associated with the prop that states: "This propeller come from an Avro 504K which flew with the Royal Flying Corps and Royal Navy Air Service from 1914. With 110 hp Gnome Monosoupe Rotary Engine it took 5 minutes to climb to 3,500', and had a top speed of 70 mph. The rear cockpit, where the instructor sat, had just sixteen instruments including a speaking tube connecting both cockpits. A central landing skid and wingtip hoops assisted the landings on muddy airfields and a single tail skid slowed the aircraft. From 1919, post-war barnstormers used the Avro 504k in air circuses for joy rides ar 5/- a time. This ugly duckling of the air worked on into the early years of the second world war." The seller states she purchased it as a large grouping of items from an auction. It also has the original RFC flag from the squadron it was flown with. Of note, I see it is possibly lacquered (to include the leading edge brass).
Please advise on what you believe the price range could be and anything else you might know if you have time.
Regards,
SR

[Dave]

SR,

You really need to see the stampings on the propeller and the propeller itself. Not that the inscription isn't accurate, but it certainly wouldn't be the first time one was totally bogus. I've seen some doozies over the years . . .

[s_ripple]

Thanks, Dave. I'll get the markings to you as soon as I'm back in the store. Here's the markings from another propeller I'm watching: LP1041/60HP/LERHONE LH/D2360/P1010/8598. Any ideas of what it might be and/or price range? It has not been restored and is in very good to excellent condition.

[Dave]

Not really. That drawing number isn't listed in the fairly comprehensive list that I have, and to my knowledge LeRhone did not make a 60 HP engine, so more information is definitely needed to make a guess on a value.

[s_ripple]

Thanks, Dave. Do you think the prop may be bogus? I'm a flyer and told myself if I lasted 20 yrs in the business, I would buy myself a wooden prop or two. I'm near London and have access to numerous opportunities, and while I'm not new in the wooden prop admiration department, I am new in the buying department. I'll try to get back to the store to take a few photos to see if that will help. By the way, if you know of a wooden prop I "must have" from this area, I'm all ears.