Wooden Propeller Forum  

Go Back   Wooden Propeller Forum > Wooden Propeller Identification > "Early" Wooden Propellers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2018, 05:58 PM   #11
Hatcracker
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Default Integral Propeller serial number layout

Further characters are emerging along the top half of boss when a strong light is shined at a very acute angle across it. However, with probably a hundred years worth of bumps and scratches (coupled with the 'restoration') it is very difficult to determine what is a character and what is a scratch.

It would help enormously if I knew what I was looking for. If you have a typical layout of the markings on an early IPC propeller and what they mean, I can hunt for the relevant characters.

For example: I can see an I. and a C. at the leading edge of the boss about 10cm apart. With the extra light held at an acute angle, I can just make out a faint P. in the middle of them. It appears the first line of characters might have originally read I.P.C. (presumable for Integral Propeller Company)

If anyone has the layout of markings (or a photo) from an early example, I'd be very grateful to see it, especially as the film crew are scheduled to re-mount my propeller on the stairs on Friday (after which, this level of close examination will be quite tricky)

Thanks for all your help

Best regards

Paul
Hatcracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2018, 07:46 PM   #12
Hatcracker
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Default

Having looked through some of the many photos on this site, I found this: http://www.woodenpropeller.com/images/DH1h3.jpg which is an early Integral propeller with serial numbers clearly visible.

Armed with the knowledge of where the characters should be, and using with my high intensity light shined at an acute angle, I have been staring at the hub trying to see characters, where there were none before.

And I think it's worked.... or perhaps i'm hallucinating.

Attached is a drawing of what I think may be buried under the paint and the restorative effort. Please allow some leeway for me misinterpreting a character for a scuff mark, or even seeing something that doesn't exist at all. Some of these marking are incredibly faint.

Please feel free to suggest what I might actually be seeing, and of course if any of this helps identify why this propeller was ever built.

Many thanks once again

Paul
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Propeller hub markings.jpg (74.2 KB, 1 views)
Hatcracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2018, 08:56 PM   #13
Dbahnson
Administrator
Site Admin
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 803
Default

For one thing, a hundred years later after a propeller has been put into use the exact dimension of length may not apply. It was not uncommon to remove some of one tip to balance the prop out after the other tip had been damaged by ground or debris contact. In that case the diameter will typically be lower than the design diameter.

I'll have to look through any data that I have, but frankly if Bob doesn't have it I likely don't either. Speculating on missing letters or digits can be exasperating, but it may be worth a try.


Finally, it can be very frustrating to try to determine propeller usage on early propellers. All of us (particularly Bob) can spend hours trying to figure them out and still come up empty. That's just the way it is.
Dbahnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 12:51 PM   #14
Bob Gardner
Moderator
 
Bob Gardner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The North of England
Posts: 1,643
Default

Paul,

Congratulations on your deciphering. When I bought and sold WW1 propellers a decade or so ago, I slowly developed the knack of a particular squint, through half closed eyes, to read the data on an ancient prop!

The data you have discovered is excellent.

Firstly it is in the style of an early Integral prop dating from before WW1. You will see a similar layout which is more readable on page 95 of my book, Figure 125, showing a DH5 prop (stamped in the manner of the time as DE H 5).

On your prop HP 120 AD refers to the 120hp Austro-Daimler engine which was one of the first successful in-line, water-cooled aero engines developed in Europe. The design was used by combatant nations on opposing sides during World War I.

In 1912, the Austro Daimler Company allowed Arrol-Johnstone Ltd of Dumfries, Scotland, an automobile maker associated with William Beardmore &​ Co. of Glasgow to produce their 120 horsepower, six-cylinder engine under licence. On the outbreak of war in 1914 these engines in Britain were renamed as Beardmore engines.

Beardmore later developed the engine by fitting larger cylinders to produce 160 horsepower.

In both guises the engine was used on the:
Martinsyde G100, with a prop diameter of 2900mm, drg no. LP920.
RE8 with T28017, D 9ft 2 ins.
FE2B with T5638, D 2810mm.
and the Vickers FB14 with V2600, D2900mm which is D9ft 7ins.

Thus, 9ft 7ins is the closest to ten feet, 98mm or 5ins short.

Please try a bit more squinting with an angled bright light to see if you can read the diameter and pitch, written as D 2 40 and P 2 80 (sic) for example. My experience of such squinting is that the data will suddenly appear readable. In my mind this occurence is much like a crossword clue which is suddenly obvious.

With kind regards.

Bob
__________________
Bob Gardner
Author; WW1 British Propellers, WWI German Propellers
http://www.aeroclocks.com

Last edited by Bob Gardner; 09-06-2018 at 04:14 PM.
Bob Gardner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 12:55 PM   #15
Bob Gardner
Moderator
 
Bob Gardner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The North of England
Posts: 1,643
Default

Pierre-Michel,

Bonjour mon ami!

Could you look at the French databases for Integrale to see if Lucien Chauvière made a 3000mm two bladed prop. As you will have seen above, Paul's 3000mm Integral is not in the British list.

Avec le respect,

Bob
__________________
Bob Gardner
Author; WW1 British Propellers, WWI German Propellers
http://www.aeroclocks.com
Bob Gardner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 02:03 PM   #16
Hatcracker
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 7
Default

Many thanks, Bob

I am rather enjoying the puzzle, although the prop' goes back on the wall tomorrow, so I only have one more night of squinting. Am I looking at the line immediately above the engine designator (H.P. 120. A.D.)?

I had taken a guess that the engine designator might relate to the Austro Daimler 120hp. This clue, coupled with the likely pusher nature of the propeller, led me to think it might be from the FE2a which I believe were all refitted with the 120hp engines, or perhaps one of the early FE2b's which had the same engine.

But there is one other interesting possibility. I believe the prototype Airco DH3 had two pusher engines, both Austro Daimler 120's. Could the NO 3 marking on the propeller relate to the DH3? Could the L.H. marking relate to Left Hand?

Intriguing.

I will re-examine the serial numbers this evening. Fingers crossed.

Thanks once again for your continued help. Its very much appreciated

Paul
Hatcracker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 02:44 PM   #17
Bob Gardner
Moderator
 
Bob Gardner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The North of England
Posts: 1,643
Default

Paul,

I posted the book to you this afternoon.

The layout of the data on your hub will be spaced thus;

I P C
DG 2367
D 2 40
P 2 80
H P 110 LE RHONE
DE H 5

The above data comes from Fig 125 in my book. It was stamped by hand and is decidedly higgeldy-piggeldy. I spaced it exactly in my draft but the website has tidied it!

Happy squinting!

Bob
__________________
Bob Gardner
Author; WW1 British Propellers, WWI German Propellers
http://www.aeroclocks.com

Last edited by Bob Gardner; 09-06-2018 at 03:00 PM.
Bob Gardner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2018, 05:38 PM   #18
pmdec
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: France
Posts: 490
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Gardner View Post
Pierre-Michel,

Bonjour mon ami!

Could you look at the French databases for Integrale to see if Lucien Chauvière made a 3000mm two bladed prop. As you will have seen above, Paul's 3000mm Integral is not in the British list.

Avec le respect,

Bob
Hi Bob,

No 3000 mm in the French database I have. But there are some Chauvière this size in "American Papers" published mid-18 or 19:
- serial 1660, with 3.55 meters pitch (!!!) for MF 40 with Renault 130 HP
- serial 2598, with 3.40 meters pitch (!!!) for MF 40 with Renault 130 HP
- serial 2672, with 2.10 meters pitch for MF 40 with Renault 220 HP
- serial 2696, with 3.30 meters pitch (!!!) for MF 11 with Renault 130 HP
- serial 2696-1, with 3.30 meters pitch (!!!) for MF ? with De Dion 130 HP.

So, all Farman pushers, probaly for geared engine except the 2672.

Regards,
PM
pmdec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2018, 06:13 AM   #19
Bob Gardner
Moderator
 
Bob Gardner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The North of England
Posts: 1,643
Default

Merci mon Ami,

This prop is thus something of a mystery.

The only solution I can think of is that this prop of Paul's was once longer than 3000mm, perhaps 3300mm, and has been shortened to 3000mm for some reason; the most likely one is to disguise landing damage to the tips.

I concede defeat !!

Bob
__________________
Bob Gardner
Author; WW1 British Propellers, WWI German Propellers
http://www.aeroclocks.com
Bob Gardner is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:13 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.