levasseur prop

[chameaud]

I am a french surgeon in the middle of France ( Limoges ) And I Discoverd in the barn of my grand parents a wooden propeller that has been used for decenies as a perch for chiken....

They are die for years, they never saw a plane, they never tell anything to me about this propeller, and there was no pilot in my family, and no airport in the area.

It has been difficult for me at the bigining to understand that it was a propeller because of the thickness of chiken drops.
and infotunately it was impossible to keep the brown paint on the front side, and it is very spoilted on the back side.

I could save, using a incredible care, the PL BSGD stamps...

Since this moment, I am looking for the origin of this object.
I wrote mails to a lot of guys, I went on ( french ) forums dedicatid to old planes and somebody gave me your URL.

I just learned that it was a spécial ( biconvex?) shape that has been used Between 1912 ( Vickers N° 6 ) and 1915, when, in France, the name and type of the plane was stamped on any propeller.

here are the images: http://img42.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=imgp2221.jpg


Thank you for answering.

Friendly yours.

Jacques CHAMEAUD MD.


I am sorry my English is bad ( I spent more than one hour writing this Mail ! ) and I can't participate easyly to your forum, but of course I aloud you to use the images I send to you.

[Dave]

Hi Jacques,

I believe your Levasseur propeller is a very early design, well prior to WW1. The scimitar (curved) shape is very unusual for Levasseur propellers, which in later years were typically shaped more like this propeller, which is a British manufactured propeller using the Levasseur design.

Also, I have a listing of some 40 Levasseur propellers that were used on WW1 aircraft of various types, and all of them have 3 digit Serie numbers (Serie is is "drawing" or blueprint number) beginning in the 400's (Serie 440) and ending in the 600's. Since yours is stamped "Serie 170" I assume that it was designed by Levasseur considerably earlier than WW1.

You might have some success going to this page to see how to determine hub dimensions then following the link to the chart of engines/hub sizes to see if you can determine what engine it may have been designed for.

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour Jacques,

Bienvenue à notre forum. Félicitations sur votre restauration étonnante et superbe de cette hélice. Je n'ai pas su que la merde de poulet pourrait préserver le bois tellement bien.

I agree with you and Dave that this is an early propeller made by Pierre Le Vasseur around 1912. We discussed a similar one (which is now in Australia) in a previous post some months ago that was fitted to a Vickers 6 Monoplane. See this link for a photo of that aircraft with a prop similar to yours.
http://www.aviastar.org/air/england/...monoplane6.php

This was an experimental design of propeller by Le Vasseur which he patented but it was no more successful than other propellers and the design did not last long. About one year I think from 1912-1913. At that time it could have been fitted to several different types of aircraft and engine.

Avec le respect,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Postscript;

The Vickers used a 70hp Viale engine so this gives us an idea of the horse power that it was designed for. It is likely that it was fitted to other engines such as le Rhone, Gnome, Anzani etc

Bob

[chameaud]

french links

I send you this two links, and I think you will be very interested:


http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/mo...de_lerhone.pdf

http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/heliciersfrancais.pdf

The hub of my propeller is 10 cm thick: that should work with Le Rhone 80hp 9-c engine that appears in march 1913. I will measure the other dimentions to be sure, but I think this engine could aford a 2.60 m propeller.

Then let us try to find the plane !

Friendly yours.

[pmdec]

Bonsoir Jacques,

Vous avez là une bien belle hélice !

You have done a beautiful restoration! Same opinion as Bob about chicken pooh!

In "Notes sur les hélices aériennes" (André Guéret, Dunod et Pinat, Paris, 1911), you can read Levasseur is a very newcomer in propellers manufacturing. In the same book, there is a description of the Levasseur prop and an advertisement about it. So, first Levasseur props have to been made around 1910.
Later, Levasseur props shape changed radically to straight leading edge.
Another point you have to look after: all French props made during the war do show airworthiness stamps (about 1cm square stamps with the letters SFA inside). If you don't see them on one "round side" and/or on one "flat side" of the hub, the prop was not for military use and thus made prior to 1914 because after the war, some props haven't those stamps, but I am pretty sure Levasseur don't made any prop with your shape after the war.

Copies from Guéret book (I have reddened the blade as drawing was a little confusing):


Two postcards. The first is published on hydroretro site (Les hydravions Donnet) and show a Levasseur propeller with its peculiar shape around 1911).


You can send me a MP message if you want to discuss in French about your prop. I live not very far from you, near Figeac, and I will be very pleased to see it.

From 18 to 21 November, I will show about ten propellers from WW1, one earlier and some from 1920 to 1935 (all in wood) in Cahors at "Fête de la Science" : all forum readers wellcome !

Best regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Et un 'bonsoir' à vous aussi bien Pierre-Michel, de ce boeuf de rôti!

Perhaps I shall be able to come to Figeac in November to see the propellers and bring you your Ratier prop which I have had for much too long.

Do you have any lists of drawing numbers from these early years? Most of my French drg nos are from the war.

Avec le respect,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi Bob,

It will be a real pleasure to see you in Cahors! Apart from the propellers, there will be many intersesting things there, like old stones, food and wine ...

About prewar drawing numbers, I just found Ratmanoff ones in Guéret book I bought some monthes ago. I just sent them to you by mail. And I have a list of Rapid and Ratier numbers I will show you as soon as we met ! About Rapid, I found one in France, but the owner don't want to sell it and I have nothing to exchange interesting him. So, we are looking for a Perfecta or a prewar Ratmanoff ...

Best regards,
PM

[chameaud]

Levasseur hub

Here are the résults in cm

thickness: 10 cm
8 bolts : 0.9 cm
center bore: 6 cm
bolt circle : 12 cm

Let us search the engine that suits ? !

[chameaud]

It works with a Le Rhône 80 HP engine. March 1913.

Now looking for the plane....

[pmdec]

Hi,

At the risk of disappointing you, I do not think it is possible to identify the engine from characteristics of the hub before WW1 : It seems it was the military who standardized the hubs to limit the number of models and have all the propellers manufacturers making identical hubs.

For example, you have, with the same measurements (central bore 60mm, hub thickness 100mm, 8 bolts of 10mm on a 120mm circle), and just for Caudron G3, an Anzani 100HP, a Gnôme 50 HP and a Gnôme 80 HP ... And all those are military approved in 1917. So, earlier, probably many more possibilities.

Sometimes, you have to admit you can never know which engine and aircraft a propeller was fitted to...

Regards,
PM

[Dave]

Hi,

At the risk of disappointing you, I do not think it is possible to identify the engine from characteristics of the hub before WW1 : It seems it was the military who standardized the hubs to limit the number of models and have all the propellers manufacturers making identical hubs.

For example, you have, with the same measurements (central bore 60mm, hub thickness 100mm, 8 bolts of 10mm on a 120mm circle), and just for Caudron G3, an Anzani 100HP, a Gnôme 50 HP and a Gnôme 80 HP ... And all those are military approved in 1917. So, earlier, probably many more possibilities.

Sometimes, you have to admit you can never know which engine and aircraft a propeller was fitted to...

Regards,
PM

I agree with you on that. The hub dimensions help narrow down possibilities, but don't identify an exact match. I think there are some more modern style propellers that have the same hub dimensions as the OX5, for instance.

[chameaud]

I am disapointed !

But thank you for your answers.

[Dave]

It's also disappointing that the propeller was stripped of its varnish, as the condition of it over the preserved decal doesn't look too bad. It's value would have been considerably higher in original condition, even if it had been covered with bird droppings for almost a century.

I also noticed that this is apparently an earlier version of the Levasseur decal. Compare yours with the scimitar prop logo to this one, with a straighter blade:

[MWP_Lamar]

I think there are some more modern style propellers that have the same hub dimensions as the OX5, for instance.

Right you are Dave. I have hub dimensions for some more modern props and there are matches for the OX-5.

Lamar