ID help

[maxim08]

A visitor to our museum, The Great War Flying Museum, asked for assistance in identifying the propellor used to make a clock.
Reportedly the prop/clock came from his grandfather who served in WWI in the RFC. This is supposed to be a propellor from his aircraft.

This is a truncated propellor that fortunately retains some information.

Hub info is:
PP A.I.D. 92

1.4.17

Dia 2744
Pitch 1839

The diameter and pitch information is on one side of the propellor with the other information on the obverse.

Can anyone supply insight into what this may have been?

Regards,
John

[Bob Gardner]

Hello John,

Welcome. For those like me who had not heard of this Museum it's in Canada and the website is at www.greatwarflyingmuseum.com

The data from the prop isn't enough to be definitive. It's very probably from an Avro 504 where the prop had a theoretical diameter and pitch of 2740 and 1830mm. In practice there was some variation. I have records of two props with a diameter of 2744 and one with a pitch of 1840mm. The date is probably a contract date rather than the date when it was made. Some contracts were open ended ( to provide replacement props on an as needed basis) and could run for several months. The AID number is the stamp of the Aeronautical Inspection Department, effectively an airworthiness certificate. AID 92 is previously unrecorded by me. They usually are in groups of three or four. Can you read any more?

The crucial missing datum is the drg no. which is likely to be Y80, where Y indicates AV Roe. Any sign of it?

With kind regards,

Bob

[Dave]

The only thing I might add is that "P.P." was the designation assigned in the U.S. to the American Propeller Company ("Paragon Propeller"), although I must say there are a lot of Paragons that don't have that stamped on them.

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Dave,

I can't think of PP appearing on any British made prop. But some of these props were made by Courtney Pope which might possibly appear as P P if the hub had received rough handling that scrubbed much of the stampings. The AID stamp and the type of date identify it as British-made which rules out Paragon unless British AID Inspectors went out to America to supervise American props made for Canada.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Dave]

Certainly a possibility. The "P.P." may be a long shot in either case. I've only seen it on a few props, and I suspect all of those were made in the U.S.

Incidentally, I made this page of abbreviations some time ago, and I'm sure you can come up with a few, like "A.I.D." that I've missed. I can update it with anything you might want to add.

[Bob Gardner]

Dave,

I've got loads in my books on British and German props. I'll e-mail them to you.

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

I've been mulling over PP. It might perhaps be RP for Ruston Proctor in Lincoln who made props, but not for the Avro 504. The initials were followed by a serial number, thus RP3224.

I always chuckle at two of the most misleading British abbreviations, which both often lead auctioneers and other generalists astray. During most of WW1 the letters RAF indicated the Royal Aircraft Factory so RAF1A stamped on a prop indicates an aero-engine designed by the factory. When the Royal Air Force was formed in April 1918 it became known as the RAF. The Factory was then renamed an Establishment, the RAE.

The second example is BHP, often found stamped on a prop as 230hp BHP where it indicates a 230 horse power aero engine made by the firm of Beardmore, Halford and Pullinger.

With kind regards to everyone,

Bob

[maxim08]

Thank you all for the replies. Bob, I have always watched your posts on the Aerodrome forum with interest.
Here is a picture forwarded to me by the owner. I had asked if they would remove the clock to see if any hub markings survived the clock mounting. No response as yet.



Regards,
John

[Bob Gardner]

Good Morning John,

This prop artefact has been done rather well compared with most. Avro usually stamped their data on the rim and I think I can see some of it on the left hand side in the photograph. Is this where you've got the data from? By contrast, most props have the data stamped on the two curved sides of the hub where it could be read more easily.

The clock might be older than the prop. They usually are, I suppose because people took movements out of old clocks to put into prop hubs. That 'Arts & Craft' font for the numerals was used in Britain around 1880 to 1910. But centre second hands at that time were rare. The thought occurs that the dial is from 1890 or so and at a later time the old movement was replaced with a modern quartz one.

I record most of the prop artefacts that I come across. There was clearly a considerable market in prop momentoes after WW1. Hubs were turned into biscuit barrels, tobacco jars and button boxes. Blades became photo frames, hat stands, tables and hall stands. But every time I see one I still cringe slightly at the thought of the original prop being cut up.

With kind regards,

Bob