Please Identify this Propeller

[Rainbowchaser]

I am looking at a Propeller that is purported to be a SPAD 7. It has the following numbers on it:

serial# on side P 1650, HP `150 H SUIZA, G585 N85 then # 26640....on the front it is marked AID 37, AID XG4 the AID 9IJ and faintly AID 3 ? J, Museum label Spad VII prop,
90 inches+ long 8 inches thick, tips painted bronze brown and it has A with an Arrow


Any help would be appreciated, Thanks!

[Dave]

I'm a little skeptical. I don't see a SPAD drawing number in those stampings, although the others resemble British nomenclature methods. The size and HP are consistent, but that's not enough for positive I.D.

The bronze brown paint on the tips is strange as well. Can you post a photo?

[Bob Gardner]

Hello Rainbowchaser,

Welcome to our forum.

I suspect your prop is from a SE5A despite the label. Museums are not always correct in their designations. This note might be the opinion of the owner who donated it. Or possibly the musem curator was a generalist not specific in props.

HP 150 H Suiza indicates the Hispano-Suiza V8 engine of 150hp. It was widely used.
P1650 indicates the pitch in mm. This is a very low pitch for a fast fighting aircraft. Most aircraft with the Hisso 150 had pitches around 2130mm. A few flying boats used the engine, where the pitch was around 1500mm.

The G and N nos are batch numbers and indicate that the prop was made early in 1918,

The AID nos are 37, X64 and 91J. AID indicates the individual stamps of inspectors from the Aeronautical Inspection Department. I have records of two of these stamping other SE5 props.

The diameter you mention of 90+ inches corresponds to the 2350mm diam of a SE5 and a SPAD prop.

The number 26640 looks like a drawing number from the Royal Aircraft Factory, T26640, but it does not quite match known runs. It might also be a diameter of 2664mm but that diameter does not match any Hisso prop.

If possible can you look again at this number, 26640. And see if you can find a diameter stamped on the hub such as D2330. A photograph of these data would be a considerable help.

Meanwhile the punch line is......probably a SE5 prop, possibly a SPAD prop, might be from a seaplane.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Rainbowchaser]

Bob,

Thanks for the info. I don't have access right away to the prop again so I can't check for the D# but will try to get my friend to look at it. Also, for my benefit since I am new at this, Can you give me a quick recap on what an SE5 is, sounds like a seaplane as you said. Was it military used? Also, if it is appropriate to discuss value here, I am being offered this at $5,000. Of course it was purported to be a WWI spad. Being a SE5, does that change the value. Also, it looks to me by lack of hub imprint that it was a surplus and never used, what are your thoughts? Thanks again.

Kind Regards

Andy Pells
Maui, Hawaii

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Andy,

Five thousand dollars is a bit too much. If it is in fine condition and has maker's decals and all the stampings are clearly readable, including SPAD S7, you might just possibly be able to persuade me that it was worth that much.

From the sound of it, judging by the illegibility of the data (which implies it has seen rough treatment or it has been crudely sanded and revarnished) I think its worth about two thousand five hundred dollars. Also please note that five thousand dollars is the price you would expect to pay a dealer. If the seller is a private individual, the price is way too much.

I'm a dealer and if you look at my prices on my website via the link below (the prices there are in GBP so you'll have to multiply by 1.6 to get to USD) it will give you an idea of current market values.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Oh, I forgot!

The SE5 was a British Scout aircraft very similar to the SPAD S7, but props are more readily available than SPAD props so they command a bit less.

Bob

[Rainbowchaser]

Bob,
By the way, I dont know if I mentioned but it does have the word SPAD etched in between all the serial numbers, so is that why its being sold as one? Would it still be SE even with that marking? And also, you are correct, it is being sold by a dealer.

The one positive is that it seems that it is an actual WW1 military prop whereas I see the Jenny's and others are often later and most that I see available were for trainers, is this correct?

Kind Regards,
Andy

[Bob Gardner]

Hello Andy,

Sorry for the delay in replying. Time zones. We live a world apart!

I can't help much more without seeing photographs. I need a photo of the complete prop, and close ups of all the data stamped on the hub; on both sides and on the top and lower face. It doesn't matter if the data is difficult to read.

Then I can advise you on its value and if it is genuine. And of course I can add the data, which appears to be atypical, to my database. I do want to make sure that you are getting a good deal. That's why this forum exists.

If the prop has SPAD stamped on it, it's a SPAD prop. It was a French aircraft. The SE5A was British and a different aircraft.

The SPAD S VII was the first of a series of successful aircraft produced by the Société Pour L’Aviation et ses Dérivés, hence the name. The S VII was renowned as a sturdy and rugged aircraft with good climbing and diving characteristics. It was also a stable gun platform and was flown by a number of the famous aces such as Fonck and Guynemer from France and in American service by Captain Eddie Rickenbacker.

SPAD began development of a single-seat biplane in early 1915. Known as the S V, it was powered by the newly developed 8-cylinder Vee engine from Hispano-Suiza which produced 150 hp and enabled the aircraft to reach 119 mph. The production model was designated the S VII. Later French aircraft were fitted with the 180 hp engine but in British use, engines of increasing power were fitted as they became available.

The S VII entered service in August 1916 with Escadrille No. 26. The Royal Flying Corps also purchased the aircraft and produced it under licence at Weybridge in England. Later, in 1917, the S VII was also employed by the American air service of the AEF.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Rainbowchaser]

Bob,
Here is a photo of the Propeller with a closeup of some of the numbers including the word SPAD. Please let me know your thoughts.

Thanks again,

Kind Regards,

Andy Pells
Maui

[Bob Gardner]

Thanks Andy,

The photograph reveals that the propeller is of French design. The details that you described are British. This arose because the British bought French aircraft and French engines and copied French props as replacements and marked them in the British fashion.

The photographs are at too low a resolution to reveal much. The fabric on the tips follow the British style and the brown colour of the paint on the fabric (which incidentally is Irish Linen) is also typically British.

So this is a WW1 Britsh prop made to a French design for a 150hp Hispano-Suiza so is almost certainly for the British SE5A or for a British SPAD S7. Both have the same value. As the prop is stamped for the SPAD, the matter is decided!

If you buy the prop, please photograph all the data for me because I would like to add the details to my database, and to establish which French company designed it.

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi,

If this prop is French made, it could be a Levasseur or an Eclair according to its shape.

The Eclair serial 100 (for Spad VII with 150 HP Hispano) was 2.35m dia, 1.75m pitch and hub thickness was 150mm (5.9 inches).
Levasseur serial 485 (for Spad VII with 150 HP Hispano) was 2.45m dia with a 1.95 pitch and same 150mm hub thickness.

All French Spad VII with 150HP Hispano props seems to have a 70mm (2.76") central hole.

Regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour Pierre-Michel,

I have five records of French designed SPAD props used with British SPADs. Two were of Eclair design, two by Ebora (which was an English Company owned by a Dutchman who studied aviation in Paris) and one by Etoile. (This is the only record I have ever seen of an Etoile prop. Are they well known makers?)

The Ebora company specialised in making French designed props for the British.

None of these had a pitch of 1650mm. All but one had a pitch of 1700 or 1710mm.

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hello Bob,

I have never heard of Etoile (French word for "star") propeller. I am trying to make a list of propellers makers and subcontractors for 1905 to 1920, but it is not finished. I am afraid it will be impossible to know all subcontractors, as I do know some who don't appear nor in "Le Bottin" (kind of phonebook) nor in INPI (official service where people have trademarks and patents kept) registers.

Best regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour Pierre-Michel,

I have only seen this one reference to Etoile. It is drawing number AB765, Diameter 2400mm, Pitch 1710mm, 180hp Hispano-Suiza.

My efforts to construct a list of British makers and German makers is also becoming a life long task! I started with seventy British makers and currently have one hundred and thirty two.

The Inter-Allied Control Commission, which reported on German Aviation in 1920, listed twenty-six makers and to date I have discovered about seventy.

I discover two or three new makers a year.

With kind regards,

Bob