Early Wooden Prop I.D.

[Grazza]

I have a prop that has the following decals and stampings on it .The decals have the name Vickers Levasseur but either side of the large bird(eagle?) carrying a stylised prop is a silver "L" on one side of the bird and a red "L" on the other side. Below all of this is "Patent No.12466.12". The stamping on one side of the hub of the prop has "MO40" beneath which is "No.225". Below this is "SERIE 151". On the other side of the hub is as follows: "NO40" and below this is "DIAMETRE 2M/0". The prop is 2,400 mm in diameter.As per the "Hub Dimensions Chart" the following has been measured.
B-2.375"
C-4.71875" (4 23/32")
D-6.375 (Impression of metal hub on the Wood)
E-8
F-.4375 (7/16')
The prop has a pronounced scimitar shape, has 5 laminers of a reddish-brown wood.
If anyone can help me I.D. this prop I would appreciate it greatly.
Grazza.

[Dave]

I looked in my Levasseur number listings and couldn't find that Series number, but I wonder if it is a post WW1 company joining Vickers and Levasseur.

Do you have a photo? The decal would be interesting to see as well as the propeller itself.

[Grazza]

Thank you Dave for your reply.I am getting some photos organised but I am a novice with computers.The hub thickness is 3.875" or 98mm. The props verbal history is as follows. The Great Uncle, of an elderly friend who gave the prop to me, worked in a prop factory in England during WW1. At the end of hostilities most of the props were cut up but the manager decided to sell finished props to the workers for 5 pounds each. This is the prop that my friends Great Uncle bought. It had been in their family since WW! and was brought by my friend to Australia when he emigrated. He then gave it to me in 1990. My elderly friend used to tell me the stories that his Great Uncle told him about working conditions in the factory and some of the happenings at the factory.My friend was born in 1926.If I can't get the photos on the web then I will attempt to e-mail them to you so that you can put them up for all to see. Thank you.

[Dave]

Here's a picture of the Levasseur decal I've seen, which sounds similar but distinctly different than what you are describing:



The hub dimensions don't seem to match up with any of the listed engines either, although it's close to a LeRhone 80 size, and the measurements can change a bit over time as the wood dries out (but usually not by that much).

[Grazza]

I have carefully removed the prop from its wall mounting and given it a good clean.By using different lighting techniques I have found that the diameter stamping is in fact 2M40 not 2M/0 and the MO40 is NO40 as it is shown on the other side of the hub.Also the decal in the photo that you posted is on the rear face of the prop but it is quite small.It would fit inside a rectangle, 2.5"x1.25".The Vickers Levasseur decal fits inside a rectangle,3.75"x2".I am endeavouring to get some photos for you and they should be coming soon.The verbal history told to my elderly friend by his Great Uncle has to be treated with a bit of suspicion until proven accurate. Thank you for the infomation.
Grazza.

[Grazza]

Dave here are the photos that you requested. the photo above the prop appear to be evenly spaced 1/8" dowels spaced 2 13/16" apart. They are all over both blades and go through the prop. As can be seen.the hub on one side has been got at, why I don't know.
Grazza.

[Bob Gardner]

Your prop is fabulous but probably of an unknown type. Similarly the union of Vickers with Levasseur is probably also unknown. I do hope not and that someone can identify which aircraft this astonishing prop came from. The shape suggests an aircraft from before WW1 or (irrespective of date) from an odd-ball one-off type of aircraft such as an ornithopter or helicopter.

May I use the photograph of the decal in the next revision of my CD book on British WW1 aircraft? Hopefully someone will be able to tell us what aircraft it came from. I'll do some research tonight.

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Postscript. The construction of the prop is British and from before 1918, which would suggest that it was made by Vickers to a French design of Levasseur.

Levasseur provided several types of props for the British, most notably for French rotary engines for the Camel and for the Hisso engines fitted to the SPAD and SE5 aircraft. These latter two aircraft had props of 2400mm diameter, but not of this shape!

Bob

[Grazza]

Thank you Bob for your quick response.You have my permission to use the decal in your next revision of your book. Could you please supply me with its full title and when do you expect the next revision to be coming out. I apologise for the mistake in my original request. The "silver L" should be a "silver P". Now that the prop can be examined more closely, I have found that the bolt size "F" should be 27/64" or .4218", not 7/16". I have carefully measured all 8 bolt holes and they are all 27/64". I then got a guide pin of 27/64" dia. and it slides very snugly through all 8 holes. The prop is certainly a puzzle. Thank you for your help.
Grazza.
P.S. The "Helice Levasseur decal" on the prop is not a decal at all but either a stamping into the wood or a branding into the wood. The wood is deformed around the writing. Would you like me to send a photo of it to you?. It will come with an e-mail.

[Dave]

I must say, that is a peculiar looking propeller.

Notice how with a right hand rotation, the concave surface is the leading edge? I don't know if I've seen that design before. And it certainly is scimitar shaped, to say the least.

[Bob Gardner]

Grazza,

I would be most grateful if you could send me some photographs at a high resolution.

The book is called British WW1 Propellers and is only available from us. I have many revisions to add to the book and I plan to do this in September; but you know what happens to plans. The book is on a CD in pdf format. It consists of two parts. The first is a general introduction to WW1 props; the second describes British prop makers and their products.

I'll send you a copy of the pages on Vickers when I have added the photo of your decal. You can e-mail me via the e-mail link in my profile here on this forum or visit my website (see below) where there is an e-mail link on every page. I don't want to publish it in this forum as I get enough spam as it is!

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

I have been researching the serie numero, 151.

Generally batches of serie numbers were issued to each maker. They were mostly unique to that maker. Levasseur's were in the range of 400-650. The number 151 is an Eclair number. (It also occurs with Regy props). But there is some interchange of data as some makers made props to other people's designs. Regy made several props under licence and all of Granville's products were. Also Eclair props were made by the British for French aircraft. Ebora made Eclair-designed props at Weybridge for the British built SPADS, also made at Weybridge.

The Eclair props with a serie number around 150-155 were for SPADS, although they had a diameter of 2500mm whereas the British made versions were 2400mm.

This does not help identify your prop but it does show that there is a thread running through all this. Vickers also had a factory at Weybridge where they made the Vickers Gunbus, the FE8, and many SE5A aircraft.

I'll continue the research. I think your prop must be experimental.

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

I have made some progress.

The first model of the Vickers Gunbus, built in 1912, was called the Fighting Biplane. The second type was the FB2 and the first incarnation of the 'gun bus' was the FB5. I have found a photo of the Vickers Fighting Biplane from 1912 that has a scimitar shaped prop, although not as dramatically so as yours. Vickers prop drg nos begin with the letter V or VC, just in case these are lurking anywhere on the hub. I conclude that your prop might well be from an early Vickers Fighting Biplane, although the No 225 seems a little out of kilter with this. I doubt if a prototype aircraft had 225 props made for it. It might be a generic serial number, the 225th made by Levasseur, which would probably match pre-war production of props.

Do any forumites have access to the book Vickers Aircraft Since 1908 which might show the prop on an aircraft?

The next stage is to try and identify the British patent number.

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Haven't got to the patent number yet. I'm a novice at such things, but I have discovered that the 12 after the number indicates 1912, the year the Fighting Biplane was built.

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

More slight progress. The 12 indicates an application made in 1912 but granted on 30 Jan 1913 for a British patent awarded to Pierre Levasseur for the improvement of a propeller.

So we have a date and the connection with Vickers. Perhaps this prop is a development of the 1912 scimitar prop on the prototype Vickers fighting Biplane.

I don't think I can discover much more.

Bob