Old propeller

[P2V7]

Hello , my name is Patrick and I am french ,I am retired after a long carrer in aviation .Naval aviation to begin then in a public sector .I come to you to help me identify a propeller I found by chance in a flea market it dragged on the ground and served more as a support for other objects .She measures 2.50 . .Thank you

[pmdec]

Hi,

Sie 2217 : serial number
N? 2235 : propeller number
Colle Caseine RG : it is the glue used
Bois A? : I can't read the small letter after the A. It can be H/h (Honduras mahogany) or T/t (Tabasco mahogany).

Nie XIII : Nieuport XIII (aircraft)
Rh 80 : Le Rhone 80 HP (engine)
SFA C (or L ?) a : airworthy stamp
E 2 : constructor or repairer code. To my knowledge E2 was used by Keisser, which is confirmed by the "logo" which read [KEISSER] - PARIS and inside HELICES LICENCE CHAUVIERE (same geometrics as Regy "logo", because Keisser began by making Regy propellers).

So, it is a Chauviere prop made under license by Keisser. Markings show it was for a Nieuport XIII fitted with a 80 HP rotary Le Rhone engine. This use is referenced in Gorrell papers. The prop was probably made "late" (1918 or 1919). A more precise date could be deduced from markings on one of the flat sides of the hub if those markings are legible (3 SFA stamps with one number on each side of the stamps).

The length is compliant (according to the archives for serial 2217: Length 2,50m, pitch 1.85m, blade width 250mm, hub thickness 103mm and 8 10mm holes on a 120mm circle around a 60mm central hole).

Regards,
PM

[P2V7]

A big thank you for this information .Can we say that it is a Chauvi?re if it is built by Keisser .Best regards .PA

[P2V7]

What does C or L airworthiness mean ?

[pmdec]

Hi,

Can we say that it is a Chauviere if it is built by Keisser: We can't say anything else. It IS a Chauviere serial 2217: It is Chauviere who designed the prop and made this design approved by military. Keisser used the Chauviere blue prints to make it (and paid to Chauviere a fee of 5 to 10% of the price billed to the Military).

What does C or L airworthiness mean ?: I don't know. On the right side of the square stamp (with SFA lettering inside for Service des Fabrications de l'Aeronautique) there is always some letter(s), sign or number to know who applied the airworthy stamp. In French, it is named a "differend" (with e acute and d final***): it a rare and very special use of the word. See for example: https://www.icymi.fr/pages/les-poincons-dorfevre (last sentence of the third paragraph).
I know about dozens of "differends" on WW1 propellers. I think I know the name of one controller (the only one!) and his differend is a letter which is not part of the name.

About your close up pic of the name of the wood, I read Aa but I don't know this abbreviation and I have no idea of which "kind" of mahogany it is: only three are in official papers I know: Ah, At and Ab (the last one for Gran Bassam mahogany). Mahogany is NOT a botanical specie, it is a "commercial name". It could refer to many botanical species. See for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahogany#Species

Regards,
PM

*** Beware: woodenpropeller site doesn't accept letters with accent nor many special caracters like the small o after N for numero. All these signs are replaced by a ?

[P2V7]

Hello ,a big thank you again for this information , it taught me a lot of things about this propeller , which seems to have had a full life given the many scars .See you soon

[pmdec]

Hi,

I hope I can see clear pics of the two flat sides of the hub where some codes can give a precise date of making. Some considerations from my archives give me a probable fabrication date between mid-October and the end of November 1918 for this prop number 2235 but I can't be certain without reading the stamped codes...

About the aircraft, anybody who have read some literature about the Nieuport XIII, could have been surprised that very few (only one?) Nieuport XIII with a 80 HP Le Rhone engine have been made, and this probably in 1916. And the only known pic (visible for example in Soltan and Davilla page 374) show clearly a Regy prop. Add to that, in the French book "Les Freres Nieuport et leurs Avions", there is not a single line about a Nieuport XIII... As Chauviere 2217 is a relatively commonly found prop (I have seen 5 + yours, all stamped Nie XIII / Rh 80), and clearly made late, something seems wrong... Idea, anybody?

Regards,
PM

[P2V7]

Hello
Sorry for the quality of the photos , but i said above it is a propeller which has not spent its life hanging quietly on a wall .
I hope these photos can help you, the numbers next to the tapons seem be 5 and 11 .
Regards
PA

[pmdec]

Hi,

Your pics are perfect, thank you very much!

So, the gluing date is 5th November. The year is never stamped before late 1920 and became mandatory in 1922, but by November 1919 Keisser contracts have been voided, so the year has to be 1918. This "lack" of year stamping is because the stamping was linked to a 15 days period along which the lamination assembly have not to be processed: By looking at this stamped date on the workbenches where the props were trimmed, the controller could see if the 15 days mandatory rest have been abided by.

Your prop confirms what I supposed Keisser was able to make, around 10 to 15 props a day. I have seen pics of 5 other serial 2217 and the gluing dates are:
Number 1490: 31 8
Number 1574: no legible pic of the flat sides
Number 1638: 11 9
Number 1816: 24 9
Number 1972: no photo of the flat sides.
31/8 is a Saturday, 11/9 is a Wednesday, 24/9 is a Tuesday and your 5/11 a Tuesday. So, impossible to know if Keisser was working on Sundays.
So, from these numbers:
Between 31/8 and 11/9 there are from 8 to 12 workdays and at least 148 props made (12 to 19/d).
Between 11/9 and 24/9 there are from 10 to 14 workdays and at least 178 props made (12 to 18/d).
Adding your prop, there is also:
Between 24/9 and 5/11 there are from 34 to 43 workdays and at least 419 props made (10 to 12/d).

An average of 12 per day seems reasonable. So, thank you for posting your prop on woodenpropeller!

Regards,
PM

[P2V7]

Bonjour
It is quite extraordinary to know , thank to you, the exact date of manufacture and what is even more extraordinary is that this propeller was manufactured at the beginning of november at the same time the armistice 1918
Regards
PA

[pmdec]

Hi,

For the Americans, and then for the AEF, WW1 is not 1914-1918, it is 1917-1919 (see for example https://www.history.army.mil/curricu...esentation.pdf ). So the November 11 1918 is not "final"... And perhaps to consider the production came to a stop before August 1919 is an error and those 2217 could have been made later if that was an order for AEF Nieuports, but I do think 1918 is a better bet (without written proof).

As it is impossible that those hundreds of propellers (at least 2235 - 1490 = 745***) were made for the few (perhaps only one) "true" Nieuport XIII, I think they were used on the Nieuport 81:
- the fact that this serial 2217 is named in Gorrell's papers suggests that this propeller was used by the AEF.
- in Gorrell's papers it was written, as a specification of Nieuport XIII, "23 sq m". This is the wing area of the XIII (Soltan and Davilla, French Aircraft of the First World War, p.374) but the 81 had the same (many sources).
- the Nieuport 81 was also fitted with a 80 HP Le Rhone (many sources).
- From Soltan and Davilla page 417, AEF Air Service purchased 173 Nieuport 81 for flight training, Japan 40, Brazil 9 and Belgium one. So, at least 223 were made. I have not found how many were used by French Military, if any. As trainers, broken props had to be frequent and a one thousand prop order seems not impossible only for those 223.

*** WW1 props made by Keisser are not that usual. So, even if Keisser made other serials and numbered the props they made without restarting at 1 for each new serial, there is a very little chance they were making another serial during the monthes of the 2217 production. I just know about 3 serials they made : Regy 154 (September 1917 contract for 200 propellers: I have never seen one), Regy serial 327 (I know because I have seen the number 1032, made in July, year not known) and the Chauviere serial 2217 of this thread. The 1918 (and 1919 if any?) contracts remains unknown because those SFA archives were allegedly taken to Berlin during WW2 by the Germans then, at the end of the war, ... in Russia by the Russians! Very few chance to see them one day...

Regards,
PM