Propeller identification

[pmdec]

Hello,

I have sent you a mp message.

For your Breguet XIV propeller, are you sure of the digits ?

Serie 1010
Diameter; 2930mm
Pitch;
Engine; 300hp Renault

The Ratier serie 1010 is a metallic propeller for Farman 235.

Ratier made many serial for Breguet XIV using different engines (Renault, Fiat, Lorraine, Liberty, ...) in power range from 220HP to 450 HP, from 1916 to 1925.
The first serial is a two digits. It's difficult to know the actual first serial as the plane type is not always indicated on the billing pages, and when indicated, it may be confusing (military habits ? ).
The last serial made for this plane is 271 in 1925 (with a 400HP Lorraine 12DB engine).
Serial 270 is for a Renault 300 HP 12 Fe. It is 3.00 meters and has a pitch of 1.63. But it don't seem to have been sold.

BUT : we haven't finished the readings of serial 101 to 225. It's a very long work because some pages are extremely difficult to read (the ink had vanished). We have to verify with army archives that are in Paris. This work have been done by Jean Devaux for the 1 to 100 series, but, as you know, this "expert" is dead and we have to continue the work by ourselves ...

Best regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour PM,

Thank you for your latest message. This expert is still alive and intends to remain so but I agree that military habits can confuse civilians.

The data in my last post is what I have recorded. I am not able to check it as the prop has sold. Perhaps it is Serie Numero 101 The British often produced a drawing numbner such as the AB 66 series for large engines, where another digit indicated each type of engine so that AB664 was a Rolls Royce Eagle engine for a HP O/400 bomber and AB 665 was for a similar engine in the Curtiss Flying Boat.

Did Ratier do the same thing, so that Ser No 1010 was the first type of Ser No 101?

No MP message has arrived yet.

Avec Salutation,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hello,

First, I regret to to have to confirm the death of Jean Devaux, a month ago ... A very great loss for the aviation community.

For what I know about Ratier serial numerotation, each new propeller had a specific number. This number is obtain very simply by adding 1 to the precedent number ! Occasionally, they prefered adding "bis" to an ancient number when a modification was made (for example there are "Série 7" and "Série 7bis", with very little differences in the shape). I don't know why they used this "bis" sytem. Perhaps they did it when the "old" serial was well knowned and in use.
In each serial, the propellers where numbered, apparently from number 1, adding 1 with each new propeller made in the serial.

Therefore, the marks read (for example):
Série 7 bis
N° 112

It may be sufficient to know when the propeller was made and some other informations. But there are also on the propellers others marks (abbreviations for type of aircraft and/or type of engine) and some others which are not so clear.

As for the Rapid propellers, I join two photos about them : an old postcard of Vedrines' Deperdussin and a copy of a factory card from the time when Paulin Ratier was associated with B. Montet (who make the design and have the name "Rapid" registred) in making propeller in his first factory in Malakoff (near Paris).

[Bob Gardner]

Dear Pierre-Michel,

Thank you for this information. The postcard of the Deperdussin is excellent. The business card of M. Ratier is also most valuable. I already had a poor photograph of this card, which was not good enough to use in my book. In addition, I had not made a connection between the reference at the top to Rapid Propellers and the Rapid propeller that I had seen at the Museum of Flight in Scotland.

I am about to e-mail the museum and will copy the e-mail to you. I'll publish any interesting information that I discover, here.

Bob

[pmdec]

Hello !

I think I have found an answer about the origin of the Série 41 prop (first post in this topic) :
It would be a Bréguet propeller. In 20's, Bréguet and Ratier were in connection : Ratier made his own propellers, but, also, propellers under Bréguet license . From 1920 to 1925, very few were made, but more were made between 1926 and 1930. Sometimes the serial 41 propellers were all Ratier made (and sold to STIAé, about 1400 Francs each), and sometimes Ratier sold to Bréguet the "bloc" assembly (about 450 Francs) and Bréguet had to finish the work.

It was the same with serial 42 (Bréguet 19B2 with 480HP engine).
They have both a shape quite different from Ratier, and 10 bolts vs 8.

After mid 1929, there is no more Bréguet wooden propeller, nor "bloc", manufactured by Ratier : it is the time when metallic is taking on wood production. Ratier had plenty of work (after in flight variable pitch patent) and Bréguet had to made his own "blocs" or ask another manufacturer. If this very propeller (n°612) is trully from 1930/5/17, it was all manufactured by Bréguet (or : "bloc" by another manufacturer than Ratier and finished by Bréguet).

Preserved 1927 bills copies clearly show Bréguet serial 41 is for Bréguet B19 A2 with Lorraine 400CV, and a 20' Ratier add show both Ratier and Bréguet propellers side to side : 10 vs 8 bolts are clearly visible and the Bréguet shape is the same as shown in first post of this topic.

So, it appears now this propeller is not a first war product ! Perhaps the topic as to be moved on another section ? But what to do with the meddle part ?

[pmdec]

Hi !
I found a photo of the Ratier add :



The airscrew car was made in 1921. After WW1, there was very tough times for airplanes and airplanes parts manufacturers, and they turn to various and sometimes strange activities !!!