Propeller identification

[pmdec]

Hello,

I would be very pleased if anybody can tell who made this propeller (probably french or european). The marks tell that it is for a Breguet 19 A2 with a 400 HP Lorraine motor.
Serial is 41, but I don't know what is the signification of "17 o C 5 C o 30".

Thank you by advance, and sorry for my poor english !

[Bob Gardner]

Hello,

One of the reasons Dave Bahnson created this forum was to explain how to identify a prop. You have provided excellent photographs of your prop and have explained all the important data on the hub!

This prop is French, dating from the late 1920's. The data on the hub of a French prop generally identifies the aircraft and engine but was written in short hand which can be difficult to follow.

I can't identify the small markings on the hub (17 o C 5 C o 30). They are typical of reference numbers of a maker. I don't know what they mean.

The Serie Numero 41 is the drawing number. A two digit number like this is typical of makers such as Ratier and Eclair.

The Breguet 19 was a superb French bomber, developed in the 1920's from the war time Breguet 14. The 19A2 was the reconnaisance version. In addition to the bomber version there were several other uses including a ground attack version and a night fighter.

Several engine types were used including Renault and Hispano Suiza but the Lorraine-Dietrich in the 400hp version (cv is the French abbreviation for hp) was the most common. Over 2700 examples of this aircraft were built.

I can see no indication on the prop of who made it. Most of the WW1 makers ceased to trade at the end of the war. I think this included Eclair. Ratier became the major maker in France and my guess is that they made this prop.

Originally your prop would have been covered in a protective coating of black resin.

With regards,

Bob

[Dave]

The 10 hole bolt pattern is fairly unusual, and might help narrow the engine down somewhat. The metal leading edges are also a little atypical of the earlier French propellers.

Ratier did make a serie 40 propeller for the Breguet. Perhaps this is a later model?

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Dave,

Sorry! I didn't make myself clear. The engine was the Lorraine-Dietrich in the 400hp version.

With regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hello,

Thank you very much for the replies. I am pretty sure it is not a Ratier : the serial n° 41 was effectively made for Breguet, but for a 260HP motor. The first Ratier in the 41 serial was sold on february 1917 : too early for a Breguet XIX !
And there are other "incompatible" details :
- the letters used to make the markings are different from Ratier habits,
- I don't know a single Ratier with other marks on the flat side of the hub than isolated letters or digits. I suppose (but not sure !) the marking on this one is a date : 17-5-[19]30 (french habits for dates are Day - Month - Year),
- the shape is not a typical Ratier shape.

So, I'll try to look for others factories which made propellers for Breguet 19.

Thank you for your attention !

PS : I have some documentation about Ratier propellers, and even about Rapid propellers (the first name for propellers made by Ratier from 1910 to 1914 in association with an Arts & Métiers ingineer). I anybody need some information or identification, I will give it with peasure if I can.

[Bob Gardner]

Hi,

I would be very grateful if you could send me copies of the information you have about Ratier and Rapid. (I have only one photograph of a Rapid prop in my collection). If you can send them electronically please e-mail me using the button below this reply.

Avec le respect,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hello,

It will be very difficult sending the information I have access to : there are more than 45.000 pages (bills, letters and propellers caracteristics) for the 1910 to 1930 period and many more for later !
These informations are only partially about propellers as Ratier was a subcontractor for electrical appliances and planes (Ratier made many Breguet wings during WW1) until 1922, but propellers caracteristics and sales are mixed with others works in the books before 1924 !!!

So, it is possible for me to answer precise questions, but I can't copy all !!!

For the Rapid propellers, the serial is 1, 2 or 3 letters (A, B, C, H, J, K, ..., Z , AB to CS plus Ko, TX and VTT (1692 propellers made between may 1910 and december 1914)).

The Ratier serial 1 was made in 1915. There is a continuous numerotation from 1 to 2476 (october 1959), including "moulinets" (for aircraft engine on the bench), props for hydrofoil ... and for cars (Hélica and one all-Ratier model). Probably, some numbers were never made (the books show the caracteristics but there is no trace of manufacturing). For the numbers between 1 and 225, I have only the diameter, path and the engine made and power (the first manufacturer book as disappeared), but for the number 226 to 2476, I have many caracteristics : more than 10.000 pages ...

I am a member of an association who published a book about Ratier :

We don't sell it (!) but we will be happy to exchange it with same value material concerning Ratier ... or others material/documents relative to propeller making.

PS : I'm very intersested by your photo of a Rapid propeller : we have some "scripted" informations, but very few graphics !!!

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour,

I have just finished a book on WW1 propellers. Volume I describes the history of the early propellers made by America, Britain, France and Germany. Volume 2 describes the propellers of GB in detail.

I am now starting on Vol 3 and 4 which will describe the makers and drawing numbers of French and German props. I have no information on Rapid propellers. Only a photograph of one that I found a few months ago in a British museum.

I am collecting a German propeller from the Ruhr on Tuesday. If you live in North France, would it be possible for me to visit you on Wednesday to see some of your information? I could photograph some of your documents, if you would allow me to do so.

Also please advise the publisher of your book so that I can buy a copy.

I'll post a picture of the rapid propeller later this morning.

Avec les salutations,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Hi,

Here are two photographs of the Rapid propeller and the decal. The prop is marked for a 28hp Anzani engine. (The man holding the prop is not me, by the way.)

[Bob Gardner]

Can you also identify or explain what these two decals from French propellers mean, please. I have not been able to discover anything about them, nor translate them.

[pmdec]

Hello,

Thank you very very much for the Rapid decal : it's the first time I see a very detailed one : the only Rapid propeller I have has been modified in a Ratier one (wood has been carved around the place "Rapid" was and replace by a Ratier) :


Infortunately, I live in the center of France (near Figeac were is Ratier-Figeac which is today the name of Ratier. It's a member of Hamilton Sundstrand), and I will be in Montpellier all the week.

We are working on a new edition of the book "La Maison Ratier", probably for 2009. When I said we don't sell the book, I mean it is not possible to buy it : we made it for people working for Ratier and for retired ones. We have some for trade, but not so much !

SHAM means "Société des Hélices Armées et Matricées". I think it is a trademark from De La Grandville who made plyboard construction propeller duraing WW1.
There is a very interesting paper in Aeronautical Engineering (Supplement to The Aeroplane) october 29, 1919, p. 1537 to 1540.

TONKILAQUE is a trademark of S.E.L.T. (I think this means Société d'Exploitation des Laques du Tonkin). They made the "laque" coat on the propellers.

I'm now in a hurry and I'll come back later.

[Bob Gardner]

Thank you for this excellent photograph, which I will use in Volume 3 of my book, if I may? I would much appreciate any help from you, or the Company of Hamilton-Ratier, in describing Ratier props in my book.

Dave Bahnson, founder of this forum, will be interested in your description of SHAM and SELT. We have long tried to identify them.

Vous pouvez E-mail je si vous souhaitez en utilisant la boîte de E-mail, ci-dessous et légèrement à gauche, au fond de ce message.

Avec le respect,

Bob

[pmdec]

For the "decal" photo, I prefer you use this one (I will send you good quality photos by mail next week-end***), as the one posted above is very atypical :


It is from a propeller Serial 34 for Breguet XIV A2 with Renault 300 HP engine. You can use the photo free of charge in your book, but you'll have to indicate the propeller is the property of "Association des Amis du Musée Paulin Ratier" and the name of the photograph (I'll give it in the mail).
In my turn, I hope we'll have the permission to use the photo of Rapid decal in our book (with museum and photographer names). If you give me the serial letter and the number in the serial, there is a good chance I can tell you the buyer name and when it was sold. It is a very very rare object !!! I think most of them had been destroyed during WW1.

*** I have to make it, as the ones posted are just for inventory purpose. If you want other views of this propeller, tell me what you need.

And, please, don't forget the original purpose of this post (identification of a propeller found in association stock and erroneously (99.99% !) marked as Ratier) ...

[Bob Gardner]

Some more thoughts on Breguet props.

I bought a Breguet 14 prop from France about three years ago. Sadly I have no photographs of it, although I have records of almost all my props. I believe it was a Ratier prop. The data was;

Serie 1010
Diameter; 2930mm
Pitch;
Engine; 300hp Renault

My description of it on my website was;
"This large prop dates from 1917-1918 and was made by Ratier for the 300 hp Renault engine which powered the Bréguet 14, used in large numbers by the French. A total of 5500 were made during WW1 and equipped 55 French Squadrons as well several Belgian squadrons. 290 were purchased by America.

There were two versions of the Breguet 14 during WW1. The B2 was a day-bomber used in large numbers. The A2 was a recce aircraft used by the Corps d’Armée for tactical reconnaissance. This prop is from the A2 version, is made of beech and is in restored condition. The leading edge tips are protected by duralumin which was also used in the construction of the airframe, the first example of its use in aircraft."

I have also seen a French military prop made by Heine of Berlin who became a dominant European maker in the late 1920's. It too was made of a light coloured wood, Beech I think. It too had duralumin leading edge.

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Thank you for permission to use the photograph.

My photograph was taken by me, Bob Gardner. My company trades as 'Aeroclocks.' You are most welcome to use them.

The propeller is owned by the Museum of Flight in Scotland. I shall ask them for the details on the hub. I suspect that there weren't any or I would have photographed them. If there is any data, they will be most interested to know to whom the propeller was originally sold. Neither they nor me knew anything about 'Rapid' propellers. We both thought it was English because of the spelling. If you send me an e-mail using the box below, I will be able to copy the correspondence to you.

If you let me have your address, I will send you a copy of the first two volumes of my book. It is in pdf format on a CD. Volume I describes the propellers of all the warring nations of World War 1 and much of the description of the origin of French propellers describes the work of Lucien Chauvière. If I should add some words about 'Rapid' perhaps you could tell me. I certainly would appreciate some input about both Rapid and Ratier for Volme 3 which will describe French makers in some detial. I am only just beginning to research and write this volume. I hope you will send me a copy of your book or the description of Rapid and Ratier up to about 1920

I should have said earlier that your English is magnifique

Avec le regard,

Bob