Help for identification. Eclair propeller

[Giacomo]

Hi all, I'm new here.

I was looking for identification of a propeller and I saw your website. I' m writing for a correct identification of a propeller.
I suppose it' s an Eclair n. 202, as you can see from codes and pics. Unfortunatly It was polished like a furnishing design object, and not an historical object. It' s about 280 cm long, possibly indicatig an use over a big plurimotor aircraft. Aniway I see on It the written: "Lorraine 160 dp" or something similar (I've sorrounded It in red).
I' d like to know on what aircrafts It could be used (I'm Italian and I found It in Italy: so it's possible an use for Italian made aircrafts: Caproni, Ansaldo, Fiat, Macchi, especially those by French design, or French aircrafts in Italian use... etc) and its commercial worth.
Thank you very much for your help.
Giacomo from Italy

[Giacomo]

Other pics

[Dbahnson]

I have listings for about 50 Eclair propellers and none have a "Serie" number of 202, so I suspect that is just a production number. I do see above that what looks like a "13_" which might be Serie 130, which is listed only for the A.R. A2 with 190 HP 8GD Renault.

Of note is that yours is a left hand rotation, which often implies a pusher rather than tractor configuration, although the Renault might be different.

Perhaps PMdec will see this and provide more useful information. He is the expert on French manufacturers.

[Giacomo]

Thank you for now waiting PMdec. An Italian expert has supposed - likely to you - a pushing propeller for Flying boats, possibly FBA

[Dbahnson]

So a quick and very limited search seems to indicate that the Renault engines may have been left hand rotation. If so this prop might have been for a tractor application. Photo.

[Giacomo]

Fortunatly I've Just found online the document "Heliciers Francaise" , have a look online, it's in PDF, click on Google.
The only one Eclair propeller 278 cm long on the list, like this, Serie 13 (the Number you see!) was a (pusher) propeller for Farman F. 40 with engine A.M. 140, wich is the military denomination of the Lorraine Dietrich engine (Lorraine Is written on the propeller too).
This suits too with an Italian provenance (Italian army used French Farmans and license built versions)

[pmdec]

Hi,

Yes, "202" is the prop number, not the serial.

Yes also for a left hand Eclair and for a Lorraine engine, as stamped in the wood, and then a serial 13 with the ~280 cm length.

To be absolutely sure, please verify the blade width (230 mm), the hub thickness (170 mm) the size of the central hole (80 mm) the size of the bolt holes (12.5 mm).

Could you post the larger possible pic of the "good" flat size of the hub: possibly the date of making is readable on a clear pic (in the one you took, it is the grain of the leather which is clear, not the prop ).

The fact that there are two numbers "202" (one above the other) is the sign that the prop has been repaired during WW1.

Remark: the data of the Gerard Hartmann's table in Heliciers francais PDF has to be read with precautions because it contains some (many?) errors (the text also). But this line seems right.

Regards,
PM

[Giacomo]

Thank you pmdec. I' ll post better photos as soon as possibile. Talking with some Italian experts, they told me that Isotta Fraschini built on licence the Lorraine engines, and these Italian built versions were used on Macchi seaplanes and Caproni bombers (which had three engines, the central one with pushing propeller).
So these aircrafts are a better candidate than the Farman, especially the Farman F 40 that Italy had only in an own particular version with Colombo engine.

[pmdec]

Hi,

In the white ellipses, I can't be sure because the pic lacks clearity, but I think there are SFA stamps, which are the conformity stamps affixed by the French military controller during the fabrication process. If true, the prop can't be anything else that a French prop made in France for French Military.

In this case, the only way it could be used during WW1 on an Italian airplane is it has been bought as a used part by Italian military: very unliky, no?

But if you are sure (why?) it was fitted on an Italian airplane, it could have been used by a private pilot after the war.

And don't forget that the prop is a pusher from the geometry of the remaining side of the "flat side" of the hub.

Regards,
PM
photoid=46533_txt.jpg

[Giacomo]

Thank you very much pmdec, very interesting.
Of course I'm not sure It was used by Italian military, I Just was looking for the story behind this propeller, possibly an Italian use, being It in Italy.
As you say, It could be purchased by a private pilot After the war, but aniway... an Italian track remains. There was a group of Italian Caproni bombers in service in France during the war, the XVIII Gruppo on 3 squadrons. They used the Isotta Fraschini v4 engines that were a version of the Lorraine. Perhaps this was a local spare parte used on them. A souvenir or a spare part come back to Italy with them. Just a possibility, an hipotesis of course...

[pmdec]

Hi,

French props made for Caproni were stamped with "Cap" and if the Caproni was fitted with an Isotta engine, it was stamped as that: I join a (very bad*) pic of a Gremont serial FV propeller made for the Caproni fitted with an Isotta 160 HP. Just "readable" ("capron - 450" and "isotta 160). A right handed tractive prop.
Gremont made also the left handed pusher (serial FR) for the same plane: 2nd joined pic*, a little better quality.

So, your Lorraine prop was for a (true) Lorraine engine.

* they are pics of 10x15 photoprints inside a catalog clear pouches: I was not allowed to take the photos outside the pockets... but very happy to be able to take pictures of a Musee de l'Air et de l'Espace collection catalogs! It seems that some (many?) props of this collection, documented in the 80's, are lost.

Regards,
PM

IMGP0841_cr_ac.jpg
IMGP1194_cr_ac.jpg

[Giacomo]

Ok thanks

[Giacomo]

A Better foto of the French army stamps

[Giacomo]

How Is It possibile they Lost the propellers?

[pmdec]

Hi,

How Is It possibile they Lost the propellers?

Sorry, I can't speak about that publicly... And perhaps "they" have retrieved them since our visit with Bob Gardner in 2010? It was so deceiving I didn't try again...

Have you the better pics I asked some posts above?

Regards,
PM