Levasseur Props - Painted?

[Davos522]

Hi All, I'm doing some research on the Levasseur props for the 110 hp Nieuport 16. I'd always assumed that they were varnished mahogany, but it was pointed out to me on a modeling forum that Gremont props, at least, seem to have had a painted surface. I'd noticed that the Gremont from the Caudron illustrated in the photo gallery on this site is cited as having a "reddish paint" overall, but hadn't given thought to it as having been a standard process with other manufacturers.

Poring over the several dozen reference photos I've collected of the distinctive Levasseur square-tipped props on the Nieuports, I can actually only find one example that clearly shows the laminations. So my question is, were most of them painted as well?

I'm attaching a photo of the actual prop on the aircraft I'm researching, which, pending approval of the source, I’ve edited heavily.

Thanks!

Dave

[Dbahnson]

The ones that I have seen or owned in original condition were all painted. Years ago I bought this small section of a Levasseur propeller clearly painted under the decal. I know that Regy props were typically painted a similar color and I think several other French manufacturers did as well.

[Dbahnson]

In fact, I browsed through my files and found several other examples where the entire prop was originally painted.

And while this photo of my Salmson prop doesn't show it well the entire prop is painted. On the Regy prop it's hard to see the Regy decal, but it's clearly also over a painted surface.


NIeuportXXIVdec1.jpgRegydec1.jpgSPAD XIdec1.jpg

CauG3XIIdec1.jpg

[Davos522]

Dave, thank you very much, this is extrememly helpful information. I'm building the Nieuport in 1:32 scale and was obsessing over the grain on my carved mahogany and walnut props being out of scale, under the impression that they'd eventually receive a clear finish. But the more I look at the photo of "my" prop the more it appears to be painted... which would explain the very dark color, since a reddish-brown would photograph as near-black on the old orthochromatic film in use circa 1916. Would it be OK if I quoted your response on my WW1 modeling forum?

While it simplifies my task, it's kind of a disappointment; I was looking forward to playing with clear varnish on my 3" Levasseurs!

Thanks again,
Dave Vosburgh
Sheffield, Mass.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Sorry, but if you think "painted" as using paint to cover the prop, there is no airworthy French prop "painted" between 1912 and 1920.

I don't know about prop before 1912, but after:

- until 1915, airworthy props (that is, stamped with EMA then SFA by a military controler) were covered with a transparent varnish, showing the wood grain,

- from an exact date I don't know in 1915, all the airworthy props (that is showing the SFA (or A navy stamp)) were covered with a shellac varnish containing ferrous oxyde dye. Those props are red to red-brown and generally the wood grain is no more visible.

- from late 1918, airworthy props could be lacquerted with "chinese" lacquer. This lacquer was made par only one manufacturer, "Tonkilaque". They are shiny black and show a small octogonal blue and white decal at the blade feet.

Levasseur used a relatively dark red-brown.

Regards,
PM

[Davos522]

PM, thank you for that reply, and that brings up something that puzzled me in my research; many of the Nieuport propellers seemed to have an almost semi-transparent finish, which would be explained by the use of a pigmented shellac. So David would be technically correct as well, the propellers would be "painted", although not with a 100% opaque paint. As an artist I'm quite familiar with ferrous oxide, or iron oxide, as it's the pigment used in nearly all of the red "earth" paints (Burnt Sienna, Red Ochre, Transparent Red Oxide, etc.) produced in the past hundred years. Mixed with shellac it would result in a heavily-tinted, slightly opaque red-brown varnish.

Do you know of any online source where I could find the original A?ronautique Militaire regulations on this subject?

Merci encore,

Dave

[Dbahnson]

Thanks for the information PM. I assumed that it was paint because it looked like paint on the ones that I have seen (most all of which I owned at one point), but I can see how it could be shellac with dye as you mention. I do still have the Salmson A2A propeller with the "Tonkilaque emble", the center portion of which is dark, and the tips are red, so I assumed that both were paint. Are they different mixtures of shellac and dye? Is there anything I can do with it to examine it more closely?

Dave (Vosburgh), Pierre-Michel is the undisputed expert on French and other European manufactured propellers, as Bob Gardner was with British and German propellers. I have been a collector for years and run the website but I defer to experts on this kind of matter. Both gentlemen have put in a huge amount of research into their efforts in that respect. With respect to quoting statements, this forum is and always has been an open forum on the internet and no attempt has been made by me to protect information posted here, but I would like PM's acknowledgement that it's also OK with him.

[Davos522]

Thank you, I'll hold off any quotes until I get the OK. This is fascinating stuff!

DV

[pmdec]

Hi,

No problem from me about quotes.

@Davos522: You are right , iron oxide is a better word than ferrous. Iron oxyde used to dye shellac have to be Fe2O3 (brown) or Fe3O4 (more purplish), or a mix, where the iron ion is Fe+++. Ferrous, in French, is for Fe++, which is dark green. I think Dave will remember chemistry courses...

@Dave: About your Regy serial 804, I have seen some examples. Some covered with brown shellac and some with black Chinese lacquer. Those with black lacquer were "shielded" with de La Granville shielding, that is pigskin on the tips, with the pigskin painted red (I don't know with what). It is not possible to "paint" Chinese lacquer: Nothing can adhere on this material, except if it is also Chenese lacquer made at the same time. Black lacquer is made by adding iron oxide to the lacquer. I don't know about red one.
Could you look at your Regy 804 for pigskin or if the red parts are "painted" above the black Chinese lacquer?

I join a good article about lacquering propellers from 1920 (in French) but infos about prop making I have have been found in many scattered papers.

Regards,
PM

[pmdec]

Pics of two Regy 804. One black lacquered with red tips. One brown shellac covered. To be noted:
- the one with shellac has the Regy decal (the third one, reading Societe des Ateliers de Construction RF - Paris, with RF for Regy Freres),
- but the lacquered one has the SFA decal, that is the decal of the Military (Service des Fabrications de l'Aviation). So, perhaps, it was a new technique used by specific Military workshop, OR that the prop has been repaired in a Military workshop.

PM

[Dbahnson]

Could you look at your Regy 804 for pigskin or if the red parts are "painted" above the black Chinese lacquer?

PM, I no longer have that Regy 804 propeller, but I don't recall it being covered with pigskin.

[Davos522]

Pierre-Michel, thank you very much for this wonderful information! The red lacquer you meniton was almost certainly colored with cinnibar, which is a form of mercuric sulfide and is also used to make Vermillion artist's paint in addition to the traditional red Chinese and Japanese lacquer. The black, as you say, was pigmented with either ferrous-ferric oxide, or ferric oxide (also known as rust!). This photo is of an antique Chinese box I've owned for many years.

And thank you as well for the article, I'll enjoy translating it. J'ai ?tudi? le fran?ais pendant sept ans ? l'?cole, mais maintenant, h?las, c'est presque fini!

Dave

[Davos522]

Also, I was just reading last night about a "de Granville" (for de La Granville?) system for laminating propellers in a 1928 aviation handbook (Modern Aircraft, by Maj. Victor Pag?). Would this be the same company you referred to as developing the pigskin system?

DV

[pmdec]

Hi,

Yes, it is the same man who made pigskin shielding after 1918 and props made by "stamping" thin laminations (about 5 mm thick) in a "mold" from 1916.
For the props, he was associated with the pilot Louis Paulhan. The first decals on these props show both names (joined pic of the decal of an Eclair serial 3 "Paulhan - de la Granville) n?28.

And he had a very long name : de la Chevardiere de la Granville and many first names : Henri Joseph Leon and Marie (In France, when somebody tells such a long "ident", we say "que le dernier ferme la porte" (please, the last one close the door)! On the small metallic plate attached to the shielded props, it is his signature at the bottom. Same drawing on Brand deposit (2nd pic).

The props and the shielding show the brand name SHAM (for Societe des Helices Arm?es et Matric?es / Reinforced and Stamped Propellers Limited). Armees / Reinforced because there was glue impregnated canvas between each lamination.

@Dave: Perhaps, the red tips has been restored with only "paint" but your Regy 804 did have the SHAM plate: Look in the red circle I added to your pic, there is the witness mark of the triangular plate. The same one on the second pic of my 12h52 post.

Regards,
PM

[Davos522]

David and Pierre-Michel, merci encore for all this wonderful information. I'm attaching a photo of my fifth attempt at carving the 1:32 propeller, this one begins to capture the distinctive Levasseur shape, but the hub area is too small and perhaps the tips are too square. I will keep trying until I get it right... this one is solid Honduran mahogany, although I will switch to laminated veneer when I really learn to reproduce the "anatomy" of these propellers.

Thank you again for all your assistance.

Dave Vosburgh