Nieuport Clerget 110 Series 2 N 4

[johnnym]

Gentlemen.

My latest find. Marked as above with a square stamp with a letter inside that I cannot make out.

I was under the assumption this is a French made prop for a Nieuport 17 but it seems it could also be for a SPAD?

It measures 8'5".

Please let me know your thoughts.

John

[Dbahnson]

My listings show that as an Eclair propeller (Serie 2) that was used on the Nieuport XII (not 17), the SPAD VII or a Sopwith A2 (Strutter), B2 (1 1/2 Strutter) . It lists a diameter or 2.5 m and a pitch of 2.18 m. The diameter of 2.5 meters computes to 8 feet 2.5 inches, but I believe that there was some manufacturing leeway allowed in the length.

The square stamp is the SFA (Societe Fabriques Aeronautique) inspection stamp.

Can you post a photo of the front side of the prop?

[johnnym]

As requested:

[Dbahnson]

I don't know what's going on with that hub. It looks like it may have been cut out for clock then filled with a metal plate when the clock was removed.

[pmdec]

Hi,

The markings don't use the "standard" geometry of props made by Eclair. It could be one made by a subcontractor or a very early one.

Is there any letter under "N 4"? Could you post a pic of the complete side already shown (don't use the flash)?

Could you post also a pic of the opposite side of the one with the markings? And a close-up of the SFA stamp?

Yes, there are some leeway about the length, but not so much. In my listing, the Eclair serial 2 is 2.53 meter (with the same pitch that Bahnson ones, 2.18 m). Normally, the length not differs by more than 1 cm from the filed one. In your curious units 2.53 meters are a little less than 8'3" 5/8 (if I didn't made error...).

Regards,
PM

[johnnym]

There was some sort of cover plate one side. I have removed it and this looks to be the front of the prop. Here are the photos. There are 2 x Number 2's on the front along with the "sFa"stamp with a "U" next to it. There is also another #4.

On the opposite side of the hub with the markings there is only the "sFa" acceptance stamp with the "U". There are no other stamps.

I count a total of 3 "sFa" stamps with the "U". One on each side of the hub and one on the "front".

Could the number "4" be a serial #?

I am not exactly sure how to measure the prop but I went from the farthest tip to the other farthest tip. Picture of the measurement is attached.

I don't believe the screwed on "rear" metal plate was to cover a clock hole. Could it have been part of the hub assembly? The plate has been on there for a very long time. After removing the "front" wooden cover plate, the hub seems to be correct to me.

I have another question about the care of the prop. There are 2 places where the layers are starting to delaminate. The very tip and one of the leading edges. It is a very slight separation but I am afraid of it separating more. Is it acceptable for me to apply a small amount of carpenters wood glue under the lamination and clamp them down to let it dry?

Thank you for all your insight and info!

John

[johnnym]

Additional photos:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...82dbff10_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...defcf89c_k.jpg

[pmdec]

Hi,

Sorry but I can't see any detail in the SFA stamps: the pics are much too blur. Perhaps there is a setting for close-ups? I suspect you use an iPad... The standard settings on Apple phones made big pics but they are pixel mush! If you can, have the right settings for fine pics or use a true camera.

About the length, it is very surprising: more than 3 cm too long. It would not pass the controls ... but there are the airworthy stamps, so???

"Could the number "4" be a serial #?" No. It is a repetition of the prop number, used along the making. The two other (2 and ? (3 or 5 or 8?)) from either side of the SFAs (there are two in this place, one on the other but the two U are visible) are a date (2nd of March) but there is no year!

"I don't believe the screwed on "rear" metal plate was to cover a clock hole. Could it have been part of the hub assembly?" No.
And, yes, the hub is in its original state. The central hole have to be 70mm in diameter (2" 3/4) and the bolt holes 11.5mm (29/64).

In conclusion, it could be a very early Eclair, the military control made at Levasseur factory or by the man who habitualy worked there (until now, the U letter after the stamp was specific of Levasseur propellers and seen only on those). To be sure, we have to look at a fine close-up of all the SFA stamps and the digit other than the 2 on the flat size to know if it is possibly a very early Eclair.

Regards,
PM

[Dbahnson]

I didn't realize that the metal plate sat on top of the hub surface, but the newer photos show that to be the case, so I agree that it doesn't appear to have been cut out or a clock, but I also doubt that it was part of the hub assembly for a Clerget engine.

[pmdec]

I didn't realize that the metal plate sat on top of the hub surface, but the newer photos show that to be the case, so I agree that it doesn't appear to have been cut out or a clock, but I also doubt that it was part of the hub assembly for a Clerget engine.

Hi Dave,

It seems that there was a metal plate the size of the central hole on one side and a wooden disc the size of the hub on the other side.

Here is a metallic hub on a Gnome :
moyeux.jpg

It was the same on Clerget. Here, a 130 HP : http://www.wingnutwings.com/ww/v98C7...0(0103-91).jpg

Best regards and best New Year wishes for you and all the ones you care to!
PM

[Dbahnson]

I'm trying to understand how the metal plate shown sitting on the wooden hub fits in with the normal metal hub assembly on an engine like the Clerget.



52614735251_7d5f48634c_k.jpg52615033956_16b6ffdc07_k.jpg

[johnnym]

Apologies for the first set of poor photos. Perhaps these closeups will be of more help.

[johnnym]

I also have one of Bob's old Sopwith Camel props that has a hub:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cd5bd2d1_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ed1f4344_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f77a8aab_c.jpg

[Dbahnson]

I also have one of Bob's old Sopwith Camel props that has a hub:

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...cd5bd2d1_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...ed1f4344_k.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...f77a8aab_c.jpg

I think that's a totally different shape than yours. So many props look similar but turn out to be completely different

[johnnym]

Apologies, I meant it as I have a hub comparison at hand to compare to the Clerget prop. I also can't explain the metal cover. However, I can tell it's been for a very long time.