Wooden propeller help

[stevo]

I have had for about ten years an old wooden propeller which I bought from an older gentleman who lived near Midway airport in Chicago IL. It is totally wooden, with an eight bolt hole pattern. It is 10' 6" from tip to tip. It has yellow cloth that is 35" from the tip towards the hub. The "varnish" is quite bubbly for whatever reason.
There are two decals which read:

Phoenix
Propeller
Grand Rapids

The labels are beneath the bubbled finish and are quite difficult to read. There are also markings on the hub which are also difficult to read. I believe that it reads Handley-Page?

Any help would be great.

[Bob Gardner]

Intriguing.

This would be an interesting mix of American and British but Handley Page made big aircraft and at 10ft 6ins, about 2700mm, this is a comparatively small prop. HP props were around 3350mm and four bladed.

If it is marked for Handley Page it would suggest that this American prop was made for a British aircraft purchased by the USAS in 1917 nor 1918.

I look forward to hearing the views of other forumites.

With regards,

Bob

[Dave]

I actually have a similar, perhaps identical prop which was also made by Phoenix Propellers. It clearly is a Liberty engine hub size. (Stevo, you can check dimensions for the Liberty on this chart.

I don't recall the length, and the propeller is hanging up in a friend's restaurant 40 miles away, so I can't measure it right away.

[stevo]

Thanks for the link to the chart Dave. It appears that the dimensions to my propeller correspond to the Liberty 12 engine. Any idea of value for a propeller of this type?

[Dave]

Thanks for the link to the chart Dave. It appears that the dimensions to my propeller correspond to the Liberty 12 engine. Any idea of value for a propeller of this type?

Depends on its condition, and even then there is a wide range.

[stevo]

Intriguing.

This would be an interesting mix of American and British but Handley Page made big aircraft and at 10ft 6ins, about 2700mm, this is a comparatively small prop. HP props were around 3350mm and four bladed.

My figuring makes it just over 3200 mm. Whatever difference that makes.

[stevo]

Here is more info:

Length - 10' 06"
Hub Thickness - 7 1/4"
Hub Diameter (actual) - 10 3/4"
Center Bore - 3 1/8"
Bolt centers - 8"
Bolt holes - 1/2"

Here is what is stamped on the hub:

Plane
Handley-Page
Standing RPM 1x40
(the "x" is a number which I cannot fully identify. Looks like a 9 or a 3 or an 8?)
Eng. (engine or England?)
USA 12A
Part No. 8-P-1

Towards the center bore is a mark - O19
Towards the blade - A larger 1

That's as good as I can determine.
Here are some photos:

http://s274.photobucket.com/albums/jj266/stevo42757/

[Dave]

I think my propeller is identical, and I believe has the same basic numbers stamped on it. It's been a while since I researched it, but the best I could come up with is that some branch of the service was using Liberty engines on a Handley Page aircraft imported into the U.S.

[stevo]

Thanks Dave

Have you looked at the pictures? Any idea of it's current worth. I have seen some nice prices on eBay lately for large old propellers.
Also, how would one go about shipping something of this size?

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Stevo,

I'll check my records later tonight and see if this prop matches an English prop. The prime candidate is the HP O/400 bomber. What is that square shape in the middle of one blade? is it a decal. Could you send a close up?

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Stevo and Dave,

The prop is listed in British records. It was from an experimental version of the Handley Page O/400 Bomber fitted with the Liberty engine instead of the Rolls Royce Eagle. The diameter was 3200mm and the pitch 1870mm. The drawing number was AB ( for the British Air Board) X (for experimental) 4987 written thus; AB X4987.

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

The HP O/400 was generally powered by Rolls Royce engines but these were such a successful engine that there weren't enough to go round. Sunbeam and FIAT engines were also used. I have just found that there were two drg nos for the Liberty engined version, ABX4987 referred to above and also ABX4967, which was the standard prop fitted to the Liberty powered HP O/400 in 1918. That there was a standard prop suggests that Liberty engine versions existed in some numbers. The engine was the Liberty 12 rated at 400hp.

I do not know if these engines came to Britain complete with Phoenix props. This was not uncommon. French built Hispano engines were bought by the RFC as complete engines with French props. But it might also indicate that the USAS used the HP O/400 in France or imported the HP O/400 to the States.

Can any one tell us?

With regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

More news. Wikipedia records that the USAS ordered 1500 HP O/400 but the end of the war intervened and only 107 were delivered, all built by the Standard Aircraft Coporation under license. Therefore it would seem that your prop was made for one of these US built variants.

As such it dates from 1918 and is of considerable note. If two enthusiasts were to contest it at auction, I could see it selling for $2000 usd or more. Conversely if it was not well described and no one knew what it was, it might sell for only a few hundred dollars.

Congratulations. Don't restore it.

With regards,

Bob

[stevo]

I actually have a similar, perhaps identical prop which was also made by Phoenix Propellers.

the propeller is hanging up in a friend's restaurant 40 miles away, so I can't measure it right away.

Sounds like you too have something notable. Perhaps you should reclaim it before it's too late! J/K
Kinda nice to hear of the history behind the prop. I can finally answer the many questions which always are asked when someone sees it hanging on the wall. Thanks guys for all the info. Much appreciated.
I was wanting to sell on eBay, but I am now liking the prominence of it. Might hold for later days.

[stevo]

Found a really cool reenactment of the Handley Page O400 :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkNHt...eature=related