Heine propeller

[Geertse]

Hello,
Recently found this heine prop.
Tips are a bit sliced off and rounded again.
Front of hub has been used for a clock.
Data that I can read.

110 PS
R?
D263
H222
Heine
N27888 I think????
Waldmannslust ????

Can someone help us to determine what it is?
What year, type of plane, etc....
Thanks for all the help and greetings,
Geert

[Mtskull]

OK. The history of the Heine propeller company is well documented and can be found on Wikipedia: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propellerwerk_Heine “Waidmannslust” refers to the area of Berlin where the Heine factory was located.

The markings on the hub are hard to read in your photographs but I think I can make out the word “RHONE” underneath “110 PS”.
This suggests to me that this propeller was made to fit the LeRhone 9J engine, of 110 HP, which was built in Germany under licence by Oberusel during WW1. It is said that the Germans also made use of captured French-built LeRhone engines, so this might have been made for one of them..

These engines were fitted to a variety of aircraft in German service, most famously the Fokker DR1 Triplane.

Any chance you could post some high-resolution photos showing all of the markings on the propeller hub?

Also, if you could measure and post the dimensions of:

Hub thickness
Hub diameter
Bolt hole size
Bolt circle diameter
Centre bore diameter (if possible)

That would be very helpful in confirming the identification.

[Geertse]

Heine

Many thxs for the reply!!! 👍👍
Here are the dimensions
Hub diam 250mm
Thickness 130mm
Bolt holes about 8mm
Bolt circle 150mm
Axle hole about 75mm
Clear photos are difficult
Greetings Geert

[Mtskull]

I’m still thinking LeRhone: The bolt circle diameter is spot on and the other measurements within a plausible margin of error.

What do the experts on here think?

[Geertse]

Heine

I have been looking with a magnifying glass and the data can be read as
110 PS
RHONE
D263
H222
HEINE
N27688
Waidmannlust
Berlin
What’s strange is that the lettering contains gold paint.
Is this common?
Greetings
Geert
I would be very gratefull if someone could determine the airplane this was used on and also the date of the propeller

[Mtskull]

All of the specifications and markings on your propeller (apart from serial number, which is consistent with the same era) match exactly with one which was positively identified by Bob Gardner on this forum in 2014.
You may remember that you were interested in buying it?

Therefore, I can say with certainty that your propeller is from:

Aircraft: Fokker DR. 1
Date: 1917 or 1918

[Geertse]

Heine

It’s a long time ago. But now seeing the topic I’ll remember it.
It’s indeed almost the same data on it.
The other one must have been sold to another person
Never heard of it again.
Now I was just looking for a propeller who’s smaller than 255cm for hanging on a wall and I came across this one.
It must be a coincidence that it was the same data because this one is shortened to 251cm.
Thxs a lot for all the info!!!!
Greetings,
Geert

[Dbahnson]

What’s strange is that the lettering contains gold paint.
Is this common?

Any time I see gold or white lettering I just assume that has been done by a subsequent owner, not the factory or any mechanics.

[Garuda]

Gold paint

Any time I see gold or white lettering I just assume that has been done by a subsequent owner, not the factory or any mechanics.

I have an original Garuda propeller which has silver paint which fills the stamped letters. It is in original condition. It has never been restored or refinished. I can even see marks which were either left by a tooth of a toothing plane, or more likely a nick in the blade of a draw knife. This mark was not sanded before the propeller left the factory. Achim Engels uses gold paint for his reproduction Axial propeller stamps and I'm sure I have studied original German propellers which have gold paint. I will see if I can find some photos.

[Garuda]

Achim Engels reproduction Axial propeller stamps gold lettering

Gold lettering stamped into reproduction Axial propeller.

[Dbahnson]

Gold lettering stamped into reproduction Axial propeller.

But that's a reproduction propeller. I don't recall ever seeing it in an original early propeller, at least one in original condition. People have used lettering fill to emphasize the markings, but as far as I know that's an alteration, not a factory technique.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Just my two cents, but
- it is very unlikely that any prop left a factory in non perfect state. In France, props with extremely light scratch were repaired, and a prop with a litlle scratch would not be accepted. I supposed it was the same in England or in Germany.
- if lettering used different "paint" that the "global" one of the prop, it would be visible on some pictures: I will not believe in gold (or white, or silver) lettering until seing an old pic where the markings are visible (if not legible)...

Regards,
PM

[Garuda]

Silver lettering on original Garuda propeller

Hi Dave and pmdec,

Yea it is a reproduction propeller. I was not able to work out how to make the photo larger but I know that Achim uses gold lettering on his reproduction propellers. His research is meticulous. I’m sure that I have seen quite a few photographs of original German propellers with gold highlighted letters. When I bought my original Garuda propeller I was very surprised to find that the stamped letters had been highlighted with silver paint. Like you Dave, I assumed that the silver highlighting was not original. Subsequent research indicates that this was in fact common practice for German propellers. I don’t think I have seen any other examples of silver highlighting but gold highlighting seems to have been very common. I will see if I can find more photos.

I was able to get some good photos of the silver highlighting on my original Garuda propeller. I was not able to find the long mark I mentioned previously but I was clearly able to see what look to me like marks which were made by a toothing plane. They are very difficult, if not impossible to photograph, but I will see if I can get some good photos of them. Propellers and other components produced during war time were not always perfectly finished.

Regards,

David.

[pmdec]

Hi Garuda,

Just two more questions about your prop:
- are the decals on the varnish or the varnish on the decals? Could you post a pic?
- how many "kontr" marks are on the flat side of the hub?

Thank you by advance,
PM

[Garuda]

Garuda transfers and mark

Hi PM,

I have had a close look at the Garuda transfers. The front of the propeller is in much worse condition than the rear of the propeller. The decals have also suffered from age related damage, as you will see in the photos. Presumably the propeller has been stored for many decades with the front face exposed to sunlight. The collector / researcher (who was also a friend) I bought it from had it hanging in his study. From memory of the manner in which it was mounted, I am sure that it would have only been exposed to minute amounts of indirect sunlight, so the damage probably occurred many decades previously.

As a result of the damage, it is extremely difficult to answer your question. The varnish appears to have been mostly washed off by some sort of solvent. On the rear the varnish, although showing it’s age more or less covers the entire surface of the rear of the propeller. I believe the “washed off” appearance of the front of the propeller is due to prolonged exposure to sunlight, and / or heat. If I had to guess, I would say that the Garuda transfers appear to have been applied over the varnish, but it really is almost impossible to determine the order of application. I have taken some photographs at oblique angles, to try to highlight the contrast between the transfers and the varnish to the maximum extent.

What are the “kontr” marks you referred to? Presumably you are asking about contour marks. Are you referring to the stamps on the hub?

PS, it has been quite some time since I have studied this propeller but I recall now that a second possibility is that the varnish might have been applied over the transfer. If so, this accounts for the goldish appearance of the transfers in places. Consequently, I have a question for members of the forum. Is the colour of the winged cup Garuda logo known? If it was silver, it is indicative that the transfers were varnished. If the Garuda logo is known to have been gold, the mixture of colours could be explained by the gold having partially fallen off the propeller due to less than ideal storage conditions over a period of many decades. The silver could have been a base colour.

I look forward to further advice.

Regards,

David.