Looking for origin of Heine 2m80 for 185hp BMW with brass tips

[Skyraider3D]

I am trying to find out what plane the attached propeller came from. The hub inscription reads:

185 PS
BMW
D 280
H 180
HEINE
35141(?)

On the reverse it says:

MODEL. B.
NO:51

The first suggests it's a 2m80-diameter Heine propeller for the 185 hp BMW (D.IIIa) engine as used on the Fokker D.VII and C.I. However it has extensive brass tips, so perhaps it was used on a float plane (or airliner) instead. Perhaps the "Model B nr.51" inscription suggests it was the 51st such modification?

According to the seller it came from a Fokker that flew in the Netherlands East Indies in the 1930s and the pilot of this plane is still alive. But attempts to learn more have stalled.

I think this prop was made in 1918, prior to the German surrender in WW1. But perhaps it's later production? Junkers F.13 comes to mind as well. A friend suggested it may come from a Van Berkel WA.

Any help is much appreciated!


PS. Given the excellent condition of this prop, I assume no preservation of any kind is required?

[Dbahnson]

Others may have some idea of its usage, but German props were often not very specific as to aircraft make and model.

It's possible that an attempt has already been made to "preserve" it. Most Heine propellers before and during WW1 did not have metal sheathing, but even a post WW1 prop should have signs of oxidation on the sheathing. These look to have been recently polished, and perhaps the whole prop was re-varnished.

[Skyraider3D]

Thank you for your reply. I have attached a couple more photos showing the metal tips better (front and back).

I agree that it does seem to have been varnished, as the wood has a very uniform yellow tone to it.

What do you reckon I could do at this point for optimal preservation and display?

[Dbahnson]

I would just recommend Bob Gardner's advice to just use high quality beeswax after a light cleaning with mild soap and water - no solvents or abrasives of any kind.

Keep in mind that a propeller that has already been refinished doesn't lose much (or doesn’t lose anything) from being “re-refinished”.

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings Skyraider 3D!

Your prop was made towards the end of 1918 by the propeller Maker HEINE in Berlin for the famous Fokker D VII, often described as the best fighter built in WW1. I have also recorded one made at about the same time as yours, 35441, with the close serial number of 35426. In 1930 the company made its 50,000th propeller.

Mercedes engines of increasing horse-power were used to power the Fok. D VII, from 160ps to 178ps and finally to 185ps and although the diameter of 2800mm remained constant, pitches of 1800, 2100 and 2150mm were used.

Comparatively large numbers of these props survived WW1 in both new and used condition. They were stored in several hiding places designed to out-wit the Inter-Allied Control Commission which got round to inspecting Heine's premises on 19 February 1920.

Your prop appears to be made of elm and ash. Many of those I have recorded are exactly the same colour as yours, and like yours have no witness marks on the hub surface of either bolts or hub plates so I think it likely that yours is in original condition.

Part Two of my series on German WW1 propellers has 43 pages describing Hugo Heine and his propellers.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Skyraider3D]

Thank you for your replies, gentlemen!

Great to hear the prop looks to be in original condition! But I've had another look at the propeller and it seems the serial may actually be 35141 instead of 35441. Does this still place it in the same production range?

I will check out your book! Do you have any sample pages online that I could see please?

I have attached photos of the front and the back of the hub. Especially the back shows the impressions of the hub plates (and some holes from what I assume are previous wall mountings, as well as some wall paint spillage).

[Bob Gardner]

Skyraider et al,

I have no financial incentive in mentioning Part Two of my German series.

I have sold almost all of my six books which describe British WW1 aircraft propellers and the four books on German WW1 aircraft propellers. I have only four copies of German Part Two left and I thought I would draw this to your attention, which I have now done.

The highest number of any of my books remaining for sale is fifteen, for one of my series on British WW1 Propellers. I have only published this info on this forum with the intention that the last of my books should go to my fellow forumites.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Skyraider3D]

No worries Bob, I really appreciate that you mentioned it! Detailed information on WW1 wooden props can be hard to find, and your books must represent an absolute treasure trove in this respect. I will contact you via email.

[Bob Gardner]

Skyraider,

Thank you for pointing out the faint witness marks on the hub, which do suggest that it was fitted to an aircraft. These marks vary between these faint examples to bold and deep marks which leaves the space in the lightening holes a few mm proud, which was caused, I believe, by successive tightening of the prop bolts as advised by Idflieg's Das Propellermerkbuch Der Luftschraube-Abtelilung der Prufanstalt der Fliegertruppen which advised tightening after each flight, and particularly in periods of prolonged dry weather which could cause wood to shrink (and conversely to slacken the bolts in periods of damp weather, and then to retighten correctly.)

If my supposition is correct, one might infer that although fitted to an aircraft, the aircraft never flew, or flew only once.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Skyraider3D]

Interestingly, another propeller identical to mine has appeared for sale. These are the specifics:

185PS
BMW
D280
H190
HEINE
45145


Could it be that my prop is 45141? (The first digit is hard to read)
Does it change the origin/age?


Also, I've found a photo of a Van Berkel WA with this type of propeller, possibly confirming the origin of these!

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings Skyraider,

The serial number 45145 dates from the late 1920's. The serial number 50,000 occurred during 1930.

I'll do some more research after I have had breakfast.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Skyraider,

I can't offer any new definitive answers for you but here are a few observations to give an overview of Heine props and the Fok.DVII, for you in particular, and for fellow forumites in general. These observations refer to known serial numbers of Heine props, but apply widely to props made by other makers as well.

Firstly, the good news for present day researchers is that several German propeller makers in WW1 made their props with a characteristic shape which prevailed for a few of the four years of WW1. They changed in size at first, as engine power outputs increased but usually not in shape. This allows an almost certainly correct identification of a maker, even on poor and aged WW1 photographs. Heine, Axial, and Wolff are makers which spring immediately to mind and there are several others. After WW1, increasing power outputs, which sometimes could be exponential, and increasing engine speeds, led to prop designs converging.

Dating or referencing props from WW1 by serial number is scarcely possible and even the assumption that props were fitted to aircraft sequentially from a batch is wrong. Prop makers may not have numbered their prop batches sequentially. Even if they did, they may not have been fitted to aircraft sequentially. For example one batch might have been delivered immediately, whilst others from the batch may have been stored (with the maker, or in a depot) and delivered and fitted later.

In addition, because pilots faced a short life expectancy, they were therefore superstitious, and so, often, had their mechanics fit several props to their aircraft to find the best; to find an extra few rpm, an extra few knots of airspeed. This appears to have been widespread because the Idflieg Propeller Handbook of 1916 produced by the Propeller Office of the Test Institute and Workshops of the Flying Troops (Propellermerkbuch der Luftschrauben-Abteilung der Prudenstalt und Werft der Fliegentruppen) specifically points out that all airscrews are of equal merit. There is (it states) no point in a unit ordering the propellers of a certain maker, nor in trying out several propellers from one batch.

I have recorded two Heine props made for the early Fok DVII using the Mercedes 160ps engine with serial numbers of 35268 and 33035. These numbers are concurrent with the serial numbers of props made for the slightly later Mercedes 185ps powered Fokker DVII (32345, 34361, 35141, 35426, and 35441).

With kind regards,

Bob

[Skyraider3D]

Hi Bob,

Thanks very much for your time and comments! So my prop is not quite as old as I thought, but still an interesting historical piece. I hope to have confirmation of the origin soon.

Cheers,

Ronnie

PS. You said "Mercedes 185ps" but you mean BMW I assume (D.VIIF)? The Van Berkels were equipped with a BMW IV opposed to the BMW D.IIIa of the D.VIIF, but power output was similar.

[Bob Gardner]

Hello Ronnie; that sounds so much better than Skyraider !

I was keeping it simple, only referring to Mercedes engined Fok.DVII aircraft.
For the record, I have recorded 42 Mercedes-engined props made for the Fok.DVII by nine different makers.
Wotan x 8
Wolff x 6
Heine x 14
Becker x 1
Bechstein x 1
Axial x 7
Astra x 1
Anker x 1
nk x 3


These 42 Mercedes engines have six different hp.
160ps x 30
180ps x 6
185ps x 4
178ps x 1
220ps x 1

The majority of these props come from the records of German aircraft shot down or forced down behind British lines on the Western Front which are now held by the British National Archives in Kew. The records are comprehensive and include time and location of the crash, the aircraft type and construction number, the engine type and its serial number, the number of laminations in the prop and the types of wood used and the maker.

Several records are from a number of British, French and German museums and a few from fellow forumites who have contacted me.

I only have eight records of BMW engined Fok.DVII, four of which had 185ps and four of 200ps.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Skyraider3D]

Thanks for the update Bob!

Speaking of updates, I've talked to the seller of the second post-war Heine prop and his hub says "Model B No.52" on the reverse. So his prop and mine are most definitely of the same batch, if that wasn't crystal clear already. That makes it all the more intriguing to find the origin. There were Van Berkel WAs with serials W51 and W52, but I am not sure if aircraft serials were ever stamped into propeller hubs.