Prop ID 100HP Clerget Sopwith

[rdboobier]

I have about 2/3rds of a wooden prop in virtually as new condition.
It has a decal - pale blue oval with red Vickers Ltd Crayford on the blade.
It would have been about 8'9" diameter.
It has 8 mounting holes and a recess in the hub to take the boss.

It is marked 100Hp Clerget Sopwith DRG 2465V on one side of the hub and VC890 Series 54 on the other.
It is Mahogany in 8 layers with wooden dowels within the construction.

It has inspection marking boxes ? with AID 61P 2no on front and 1no on the rear as well as PF in an oval marking.

I was given it many years ago by an old lady from next door who has since passed. She found it when she moved to the house probably 40 years ago in the basement and wanted rid.
I would really like to know what it was mounted on !

I will try and add picures later - had a bit of a problem registering !

[rdboobier]

These are te last 3 photos of the prop markings.

I have over the years tried to find info on Sopwith's with 100hp Clerget engines but no sucess.
Have now found this really amazing site and already learnt a lot about the markings etc (hours of interesting reading).

It looks like the Drawing DWG2465V is the key ?

Any info would be gratefully received.

Richard.

[Dbahnson]

If Bob Gardner or PMdec don't beat me to it I can try to look up that drawing number when I'm home in a few days. It's not uncommon for one drawing to apply to several aircraft, so if that's the case you would need to see some indication of a specific model stamped on the hub, which you sometimes do.

It's a shame that the other blade is missing, but it was probably damaged in use. Had they known a hundred years ago that its value would be higher if the damaged segment was left intact, they would have left it alone.

[Dbahnson]

I can't find that drawing number anywhere. British prop drawing numbers typically begin with a letter or pair of letters, but even then I can find that sequence of digits on any of the listed drawing numbers.

[Bob Gardner]

Richard,

Vickers use of drawing numbers has often baffled me. I have long since given up trying to understand their logic, meaning and use.

The drawing number 2465V indicates a Vickers drawing number for this prop, generally written as V2465. Although not listed in any of the Air Board publications of approved propellers (referred in the language of the time as Standard Propellers) similar numbers in the 24xx range appear in a list of drawing numbers for props for the Vickers FB19.

Often Vickers added two drawing numbers to a prop. I have no idea why! VC890 is a drawing number of the Vickers works at Crayford, information which is duplicated by the decal. These decals are often fragile and yours is about the best I have seen.

Again VC890 does not occur in any known official lists and their are no numbers listed which are close to this one. The nearest is VC370 which is a drawing number for a prop for the Vickers FB12.

If you find this description confusing, puzzling and of little use, you have formed a correct understanding of Vickers drawing numbers.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Dbahnson]

Great info, Bob.

Do we know of any Sopwith aircraft that used the 100 HP Clerget engine? I think the only Clerget used on Camels was a 130 HP version.

[Bob Gardner]

Dave,

Vickers used the 110hp and 130hp Clerget in the Vickers FB19.

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Dave,

Lang was in the in-house prop maker for Sopwith.

Lang made props for 80hp, 110hp and 130hp Clerget engines fitted to;
Beardmore WBIII
Sopwith Pup
Sopwith Triplane
Sopwith Strutter
Sopwith Camel
AW FK10

With kind regards,

Bob

[rdboobier]

Thanks for the info, thought this may be a difficult one as I could not find any references to 100hp Clerget engines only the 110 and 130hp.

I believe they did a 100hp in later years about 1929, but Sopwith were long gone by then.

Any guess as to age ?

It seems to have had little use as the condition is so good (apart from the obvious !) and a little chipping at the tip - this could be by rough handling in its later years also.

My guess with no back up at all to prove was a Pup mainly because it seemed to have a 100hp.

Possibly it was a development item ?

Thanks again for your help - I'm very aware how long these I.D's take you guys to check out and its appreciated - I've spent hours and hours over the years !

Richard.

[pmdec]

Hi,

@rdboobier: Could you measure the exact distance between the tip and the center of the central hole? It's easier to measure from the edge of the central hole then adds half of the central hole diameter. The point to choose at the tip is the one giving the maximum distance. And are you able to measure the pitch?

@Bob: Did you know if Vickers and Chauvière knew each other? The way Vickers gave a serial number to its prop could be the same as Chauvière with 4 digits reflecting the selling price which was depending of a combination between length and pitch. Is there somewhere a list of Vickers numbers with diameters and pitches?

Regards,
PM

[rdboobier]

Pmdec - thanks for reply, the info you requested is :-

Dia 2676mm
Hub hole through prop 70mm
Hub flange recess 190mm

I have attempted to measure the pitch having googled it so I hope I've got it about right !

75% distance from hub centre - laid flat on the floor.
True Horizontal distance @ 90deg i.e shadow projected onto floor of blade 242mm
Trailing edge on floor - Leading edge approx 80 mm from floor (all a little difficult to be totally accurate on a carpeted floor !)

Hope this makes sence !

Regards,

Richard.

[pmdec]

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your answer. Your measures give a 2.08 meters for the pitch (0.75 x 2.676 x pi x 80 / 242). The Chauvière data for a 2465 serial are 2.75 meters prop diameter (not far from yours) and a 1.75 meter pitch, which is very different. So, if Vickers used a system like Chauvière, the formula is different at least for the pitch.

Sorry to have not anything useful concerning your prop...

There is a simpler method to measure the pitch: have the prop on a table with flat side of the blades up. Choose a distance from the center about 2/3 of the blade length. Put a graduated regular on the blade. Measure the distance between the regular and the table each side of the blade. The difference between those two measures divided by the true length between the two points of the regular is the sinus of the angle. Any calculator will give the tangent of the same angle (tan(arcsin)), without estimating the projection of the blade width.

Regards,
PM

[rdboobier]

Thanks for the reply - looks like I've got a non standard one.

I've remeasured it on the dining room table as its much firmer than the carpet !
I get similar dims but the 80 is now 85mm, not that it seems to make much difference.

Using the alternative 2/3rd method the blade width (actual) was 270mm with a rise of 98mm giving a Sine of 0.3629 -21Deg 16'
Tan of .3899 and 251mm horizontal (I think this is what you referred to ?)

However the pitch still does not (according to my calcs) fit with the French one you referred.

I've attached a couple of photos of the blade being checked on the table which show that the trailing edge is quite flat the the hub line.

Probably will remain a mystery.

Thanks again

Richard.

[rdboobier]

Having spent many hours viewing both this and other sites I think the VC890 probably relates to Vickers Crayford manufacture and its diameter of 8'9".

Seems limited info on the web for Clerget 100hp engines, but I did find references to type 9J 10.7 litre 9 cyclinder built by Gwynne 100hp - however no references to planes it was fitted - especially Sopwith ones.

[wexpier]

I have about 2/3rds of a wooden prop in virtually as new condition.
It has a decal - pale blue oval with red Vickers Ltd Crayford on the blade.
It would have been about 8'9" diameter.
It has 8 mounting holes and a recess in the hub to take the boss.

It is marked 100Hp Clerget Sopwith DRG 2465V on one side of the hub and VC890 Series 54 on the other.
It is Mahogany in 8 layers with wooden dowels within the construction.

It has inspection marking boxes ? with AID 61P 2no on front and 1no on the rear as well as PF in an oval marking.

I was given it many years ago by an old lady from next door who has since passed. She found it when she moved to the house probably 40 years ago in the basement and wanted rid.
I would really like to know what it was mounted on !

I will try and add picures later - had a bit of a problem registering !

Hello, I am a newcomer, I believe I have the same full size prop as you with slightly different markings AID70, I cannot make out the markings on the other side.

I have attached 3 images to show you the markings, did you ever find out what plane this came from or what year these props are from?

Would it be possible for you to explain what the markings mean?

My ultimate question is are these original props and could you put a value on something like this as please?

Kind Regards,

W