Vintage Intergral Propeller

[C Donnelly]

Hi. I'm new to this forum and hoping someone could assist me? I've done some homework on this propeller, which was given to my family - supposedly by the Red Baron.
From the fairly basic information I have found (which took me from one thread to another slowly piecing the history together), these are (I think)the important "specs":
1. Propeller material - laminated (?) - looks like solid wooden sections compressed (?) The wood is covered in a seemingly dark canvass.
2. Propeller span = 2700mm (there might be some little bits sheared off the "tips")
3. Inscription on hub:
INTEGRAL PROPELLER
DRP
N 2620
D 270
S 152
100PS (inscription next to it ..(illegible).... 6 CYL
LVG DOPPEL DECKER
Under the hub:
STAND
1230
I have pictures I could add if need be?

[Dbahnson]

Please add the photos, including the stamped numbers/letters. If you need help let me know and I'll have you email them to me.

I'd be very skeptical about the Red Baron link, unless there was clear documentation that it was true.

[Bob Gardner]

Good Evening C

Welcome to the forum.

The data on your propeller dates it to c1913-1915. The data translates as:

INTEGRAL PROPELLER The German subsidiary of the French Propeller Company. It operated under licence from c1913 to August 1914 when it was nationalised by the German government and in 1915 renamed as the Imperial Propeller Company.

DRP The pre-WW1 Deutches Reichspatent

N 2620 The Integral serial number

D 270 The diameter in cm

S 152 The pitch in cm

100PS 6 Zylinder Mercedes The original 4 Cylinder Mercedes engine was stretched to 6 Cylinders about 1914 which gave 100 pferdestarke, about 100 HP, although German horsepower is slightly less than British HP by about 1.50%

LVG DOPPELDECKER B-1 The aircraft maker; the Luft-Verkehers-Gesellschaft mbH. The Albatros B-1 and B-2 also used this engine, both mostly as trainers.

STAND 1230 An abbreviation for Stranddrehzahl an engine test speed which the propeller had to achieve on test, here 1230rpm.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

C,

The family history that MvR gave this prop to a member of your family is unlikely to be true. For two decades or so I bought and sold WW1 aircraft props and became accustomed to similar stories. I have heard many variations on the theme. Typical examples are; grandfather flew Spitfires during WW2 and this prop came from one of those. This about a Tiger Moth prop. There was never any attempt to deceive me. When I explained what the prop was the family were astonished.

Similar occurrences were frequent. I concluded that young children did not listen to their elderly kith and kin.

On a more practical level, how did MvR have an LVG prop? How did he come by it? And your relative having received it, how would he carry it to his PoW camp? And eventually back to Blighty?

It is possible that these things came to pass, but more likely that it was taken home as war booty by an aviator or bought from war surplus stocks in the years after the armistice.

I'm sorry to be a Sour-Puss!

With kind regards,

Bob

[Dbahnson]

There is a theory that if all of the fabric that was claimed to have been from the Red Baron's Fokker was assembled together it would be enough to cover several dozen airplanes.

[C Donnelly]

Good morning
After some attempts, I am seemingly unable to attach the pics... Could you perhaps forward me your e-mail address?
Rehards
C Donnelly

[Dbahnson]

Try dbahnson at gmail dot com. I'll process them from here.

[C Donnelly]

Sent images to e-mail address. Many thanks again!

[Dbahnson]

Uploaded to your original post above.

[Bob Gardner]

C,

What a wonderful propeller! It was made to the pre-WW1 Integrale shape where the trailing edge of both blades describe a straight line through the hub, a characteristic of the designs of the founder of the Integrale Company, Lucien Chauvière.

I attach below a close up of an Integrale decal of similar design to yours. The centre of the decal has a bird's wing, surrounded by the letter C for Chauvière. There is a witty French pun lurking here. The letter C written in this form is also the mathematic symbol of the integral function used in calculus. The French for wing is aile, which when pronounced in French, sounds the same as the letter L, the initial of Chauvière's first name Lucien.

Therefore the simple letter C surrounding the wing conveys several things; the initials of Lucien Chauvière, the name of his company Integrale, his scientific approach to propeller design and propelled flight.

I believe Pierre-Michel Decombeix told me about this delightful pun several years ago. I smile inwardly every time I see this form of Chauviere's trade mark.

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi,

There is a French Chauvière serial 2410-1 with length of 2.70 meters and a 1,50 meter pitch designed for Rumpler fitted with 110 HP Benz. It was a "late" model (appeared only in 1918 ).

Could you post a pic of the tip of the blade marked with the red rectangle? It is just to see if there is an unglued lamination, or if there is kind of a notch there.

@Bob: I don't remember speaking about the special C as a recall of the math symbol ∫ ... And I (re???)discovered that ... today here!

@Bob again: why the stamping is "D R P" and not "I (or J) P W"?

@Bob (the last one!): When the markings Geprüft P&W and Stand xxxx appeared? Doesn't the shape of the prop and its production by IPW be 3 or 4 years before? Could it be an "old" prop reused?

Many questions....

Regards,
PM

[C Donnelly]

Good evening
Could anyone advise on value of this propeller?

[Bob Gardner]

Pierre-Michel,

You ask me simple questions on complicated subjects so my answers tend to be long!

Many thanks for the details of a French made prop for a German aircraft. I have recorded perhaps a dozen similar examples where the British and Germans manufactured props for an enemy aircraft. In all cases this was to return a captured enemy aircraft to the air for flight testing, often in mock combat against allied aircraft.

DRP (Deutches Reichs Patent) existed from 1870 until the end of WW2. Its presence indicates that the design of an item, here a propeller, has been registered and is therefore copyrighted, preventing any one from copying the design.

IPW refers to the Integrale Propeller Werke, the German subsidiary of Lucien Chauvière's company. There were similar Chauvière subsidiaries in Britain, Austria and Russia. The capital I in German gothic script looks like a J to a modern eye, thus JPW. The IPW was opened on 9 July 1912 in Frankfurt am Main with a Branch at Johannisthal airfield in Berlin. It continued to make props for German aircraft until August 1916 when it went into liquidation.

It emerged as the Imperial Propellerwerke in June 1916 and began selling props on 1 September 1916.

Note that the Imperial company was formed before the Integral company closed, which suggests that the transformation of the company from a French subsidiary to a German company was pre-planned and put a French company into legal German ownership.

P & W on a German prop indicates the Prufanstalt und Werft der Fliegertruppe which was the Test Institute and Workshops of the Flying Troops. It merged with the FLZ, the Flugzeugmeisterie, in 1917 to form a test centre for all German aviation. Thus the presence of FLZ on a prop dates it to 1917 or 1918, and similarly P & W dates a prop to before 1917.

Do you have copies of my four books on German WW1 propellers? If not should I send you the set?

With kind regards,

Bob