Identifying WWI prop

[AFBreest]

And I see the extra writing. I believe it states:

13
110 CLERGET RH
1576 ( the number 6 could also be a 0, 8, 9)

[Bob Gardner]

Hi AF,

The drg number P23 is a drawing number of the British & Colonial Company listed for the Nieuport 17, powered by the 110hp Clerget engine. The prop may have been made for British Nieuports by this company but it might equally have been made by another company using the P23 drawing.

French Nieuports were bought by the British in WW1, and came with engines and props which were then made under licence in GB. So PM is correct that the prop design is French. P23 is the drawing number of the B & C copy. Only a small number of these Nieuports were bought for the RFC. They partially equipped four RFC squadrons.

The diameter of 8' 5" translates as 2570mm. I have recorded one other with a smaller diameter of 2496mm, a difference which is outside the design limits, so the prop may have been used on some other aircraft as well as the Nieuport 17.

With kind regards,

Bob

[AFBreest]

Bob and PM,

Thanks for all of the great info on this prop! It's great to have a little more accurate history on it since it's been in our family the last 30 years.

You both mentioned the drawing number on the prop linking it to the Nieurport 17 aircraft. What database are you drawing from to look that information up? Is it online somewhere or in a book I can purchase?

Thanks!

Andrew

[Dbahnson]

You both mentioned the drawing number on the prop linking it to the Nieurport 17 aircraft. What database are you drawing from to look that information up? Is it online somewhere or in a book I can purchase?

Sure is. Bob wrote the books listing all the available information on both British and German propellers.

You won't find a more comprehensive source anywhere in the world.

[pmdec]

Hi,

If the prop has been made by Régy, it would have a "stamp" on the blades (each side of the hub) like those:



They read: "Les Fils de Régy Frères" (The Sons of Régy Brothers) and "HÉLICES RF" (RF PROPELLERS).

They could be very faint.

If they are not there, it would say, IMHO, that the prop has been made by a licensee in France or in England.
Bob could have more info: why there are no batch and prop numbers (if made in England) and why measurements are feet and inches (it seems to me that in the WW1 era, English props measurements were ine millimeters). It could be because it was made in France (and French prop makers thinking about feet and inches easier or mandatory in England?).

Regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Bonjour Pierre-Michel,

I agree. This is not a French made prop. It carries entirely English markings. And I'm sure from your posts that it is of French design, in this instance given a British & Colonial Co drawing number of P23, where the designator letter P indicates B & C. The British could not import sufficient French aircraft, engines and props during WW1 so they were made in Britain under licence.

There are no batch numbers ( G & N numbers) because the prop (and Nieu 17) pre-dated September 1917 when the newly formed Air Board started allocating them.

As the French were the world-leading designers of aero-engines and props at the start of WW1, it became the convention to use their nomenclature, in this case mm for millimetres; hence 2570mm. There was a short period in WW1 when the British used Imperial measurements; hence 8ft 5inches. Not only was it done for a short time but only a few makers did it. As you, the French, and us British had been enemies for at least a thousand years of invasion and warfare, perhaps it was a momentary reversion to type!

Avec le Respect,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi Bob,

Thank you for these infos. And yes, I think it is a Régy design, even if Grémont props have quite the same shape: Attached pic is a Grémont serial S.

Regards,
PM

[AFBreest]

Hi Bob,

Thanks again for all of the great info. I've built a mount for the prop and have it displayed quite nicely at my place. I think I may go ahead and order one of your books. Can you recommend which book would have the most information related to the prop I have in this thread?

Thanks,

Andrew

[Bob Gardner]

Andrew,

None of my books describe a prop like yours. They describe British and German WW1 props. Yours is French and we are all waiting for Pierre-Michel to publish his book on Les Hélices Français.

But one of my books (Design & Manufacture of British WW1 Props) has about seven pages which describe the pioneering work of Lucien Chauvière whose work totally dictated the design of your prop. And Part Two of my British series has about fifty pages which describes the British & Colonial Prop company who made your prop, probably under licence. But none of these 50 pages has any relevance at all to your prop.

I suggest I email you a pdf of the seven pages on Chauvière.

With kind regards,

Bob

[AFBreest]

Bob,

Thanks for offering to send that small PDF. I would gladly take it!

I've really enjoyed all of the information you've given me so far. I'm a C-130 pilot in the states and love getting all this early prop history. I may still get your second book as well. It would be cool to have a little history on the company that produced my prop. Does the book by chance include any info on the Nieu 17 being built under contract by the British?

My email is afbreest@comcast.net

Thanks again,

Andrew

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings Andrew,

I emailed the description of Lucien Chauvière several days ago. Part Two of my series on British prop makers describes B & C in general but not in the specific, so there isn't a description of your prop.

Some data has come to light recently that might enable me to write a complete book about B & C propellers, but not yet!

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Andrew,

Have you received the pdf about Lucien Chauvière that I emailed to you several days ago?

Bob

[AFBreest]

Bob,

I have! I must appologieze for my delayed response. I have been on the road the last several weeks and am just now getting settled back at home.

I really did enjoy your PDF excerpt though. It's great to have a sense of how the propeller was designed and built. I just passed the PDF on to my dad who previously owned the prop for the past 30 years-- I know he's going get a kick out.

And you'll have to post a follow up if you go forward with a new book!

Best regards,

Andrew

[Nieuport29]

I have been researching from the other direction. The aircraft is the Nieuport 17bis - the only single seat Nieuport scout to see any service with the Clerget, which was both heavier and lower powered than the Le Rhones normally used. It was not a popular type and only built in very small numbers, so this is a very rare prop - 50 of the British built examples were delivered, along with 27 French examples, however many of the British built examples never made it out of their crates, as deliveries took so long they type was obsolete before they were all delivered. The Nieuport 17bis was built under licence in the UK by the Nieuport and General company (who also built HP O/400s and Camels) - and the only operator of the 17bis was the Royal Naval Air Service. I recently noticed that the propellers used on the British-built examples were different from any of those used on any French-built Nieuports, and was attempting to find drawings or at least better photos (thanks) for a drawing of the 17bis I am presently working on. Some of the Beardmore built Nieuport 12s also used a similarly shaped propeller - and the same engines as the 17bis.

[Bob Gardner]

I believe I read once that Clerget engines purchased by the RNAS and RFC from France came with three propellers as part of the package. Is this distant memory likely to be correct Pierre-Michel?

With kind regards,

Bob