Cauldron G3 ? G.Colin & Busigny Fres * Paris

[context]

I recently purchased an early wooden propeller in France and was told it was from W.W.I. Although I was sceptical of the information I purchased it just the same because of the decal and the overall integrity of the surface. ( my background as a painted furniture dealer was helpful in determining the authenticity of the item regardless of its actual age) I stumbled upon this website late last week and would appreciate any additional insight or information that the membership might be able to provide. Based on he information David has provided I believe the labels on my propeller indicate that G. Colin & Busigny may be one of the other contractor manufacturers for the Caudron. G.3 aircraft during the war.

I will post several pictures of the prop and the identifying embossed serial numbers etc. and hope to hear back as to what the full story and potential value of this item might be for the right museum or collector.

Sincerely Brian Knapp Toronto. Canada

[Dave]

From previous correspondence, here are some photos. The prop appears to have only the stamping "253" on the central part of the hub, along with what seems to be a peculiar cut across one face of the hub. I could not find that series number, although the prop certainly has all of the normal characteristics of a Regy licenced propeller.

Perhaps PMDec can shed some light on it.

Brian, are you certain that there are no stampings along the side of the hub? That's often where the key data exists.

[pmdec]

Hi,

The markings which can help in identification are on the rounded sides of the hub, but there is no picture of them. They are mandatory to tell anything accurate about this propeller.

As Dave said, and as it is written on the decal, it is a Régy propeller, made under license. The first army contracts with Colin et Busigny are from september 1916 to repair propellers and they have no contract with army to make propellers before 1918, but they can have made propellers directly for aircraft constructors before (but not before 1916).

Régy is the brand for which there are the greatest number of licensees : many are known, but it is the first time I see one made by Colin et Busigny with its decal.
So, it is an interesting piece for a museum, but it doesn't imply a high value. In France, the value of a prop depends most from the aircraft it was made for, except for Chauvière (and also Levasseur) propellers because their shapes are much appreciated. From the varnish state, I suspect the two "exterior" laminations are not in the same wood as the central ones: it is a known (and authorized) practice: sometimes, there are codes for the wood(s) stamped on the same side of the hub than serial and prop number, but not always. A good cabinetmaker may tell you which are the wood(s) the prop is made without stripping the varnish!

The number 253 (on one of the flat sides of the hub) may be the serial number, but it may also be the prop number or a number "internal" to Colin et Busigny. The serial 253 is not in the list of approved propellers by late 1917, but it could be approved later.

On the opposite flat side, there are two numbers (1 or 2 digits each) in the blue squares I added: I read 10 (or 19?) and 8, but I am not sure. Could you post very clear picture of them? It is part of what may gives a construction date. In the circle, there is a square (and in the square there have to be the letters SFA: it is the airworthy stamp and it have to be 2 more (3 stamps on this side, and 1 on the rounded side, under the serial and prop numbers.). Near these square, there have to be some letter or digit: could you also post pics of them? It is one more detail to know the construction date.

I would be interested in a high res pic of the decal for my database: could you send one to pmdecombeix at yahoo dot com?

[Dave]

Thanks, PM.

What do you make of the kerf (apparent saw cut) in the hub? I wondered if that was perhaps a method of marking the prop as unairworthy.

[pmdec]

Hi Dave,

I don't think it is a kerf but a split along the wood grain (it was mandatory to have the lamination axles parallel to the grain). As it goes trough the lamination, it appears of an constant thickness. This lamination had suffered from drying and for the same raison the varnish is partially destroyed. Just IMHO!

PM

[Dave]

Now that I look more closely, PM, I think you're correct. I initially though that it looked like a saw kerf that ended abruptly (vs. tapering like a split in the wood), but now that I look a little more critically, it looks as if the lines don't line up with each other the way you'd expect a saw cut to do.

[Dave]

New pics sent to me, clearly showing Serie 240, which I'll have to look up later.

[Dave]

The Regy Serie number 240 indicates that this prop was designed for use on an Anzani 6 cylinder (45 HP) engine and used on the Caudron G3 as well as a Morane "Rouleur", which I believe may be a non-flying training aircraft.

[pmdec]

From the new pics, I have very few to add to Dave's post.
The prop has to be 210 centimeters (82-2/3) long and blade width 22.5 (8-7/16).
The two external laminations are beech and the three central mahogany.
It have to be made between the meddle of 1918 and 1922 (probably in 1918 or 1919).
The marking "Ecole" means it was for airschool use.
253 is the prop number.

The same serial was on this forum last year: http://woodenpropeller.com/forumvB/s...ead.php?t=2565

Regards,
PM

[context]

Thank you very much for the details on this item. I was excited to find out that it was from a Caudron, but not so jazzed to think that it was from a training aircraft that never flew anywhere! Such is life. I will be selling it through my shop here in Toronto, and will be including the information you have presented in this feedback. thank you ver much for the information.

Kind regards Brian

[pmdec]

No problem!

You can give my e-mail I wrote in a post above to your buyer, because I can repeat those infos and I would like to have some bigger pictures of the decals and the markings on the flat sides of the hub and a close up of the airworthy stamp on the side (under the serial and prop numbers).
Don't be disappointed: propellers for schools with the marking "Ecole" are pretty rare.

A last question: How do you took it from France to Canada (and at which cost)?

Regards,
PM

[Dave]

A last question: How do you took it from France to Canada (and at which cost)?

PM, as for shipping props internationally I have used IPSparcel now for a number of props and found it very inexpensive, and they handle the customs so a broker is not required. In fact, many international shipments have ended up close to domestic shipments in price, and IPS uses the same carriers, like FedEx, UPS, and DHL. If you construct an inexpensive sturdy crate damage can be avoided and I usually don't bother with the insurance.

Duty and tax may be charged separately to the receiver, but the shipping cost for such a large item is surprisingly low - usually about half what the carriers themselves would charge if contracted directly.

[pmdec]

I'm afraid IPSParcel works only from US...

[Dave]

I'm afraid IPSParcel works only from US...

Maybe, as I haven't actually shipped from Europe to U.S. but I did ask at one point and I believe they told me it could be done easily. Maybe it requires a U.S. user, however.

[pmdec]

You are right! I emailed them and they told me to click "Import Shipment Quote".
I tried a quote it and it works. Prices are higher than the other way... but we are used in France to pay higher prices for everything except medical...
Thanks a lot Dave!