Halberstadt CL.II

[BLOWHARD]

Hi guys, I'm working on profiles of the Halberstadt CL.II. I know the primary propeller was Niendorf. There is a lot of good info on this one including detailed descriptions in capture reports. But I know others were used, Heine and Astra.
I'm looking for drawings or photos showing the profile of the Heine, I can't see it too clearly in photos.
And then there is this propeller (or propellers)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps3d7359f0.jpg
They seem to have a similar shape but they may not be the same. The one on the right is a B.F.W. built CL.II and has what looks like a Germania logo on it.
Any ideas?

Basically I'd greatly appreciate any information on propellers used on CL.IIs other than Niendorf.

Bob Gardner, I sure could use your German Propellers book(s) right now!!!

Here is a sample of what I'm working on-
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ps0441c8dc.jpg

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings Blowhard,

Welcome to the forum.

Prop makers that I have recorded for the HAN CL II are;
for the Argus engine; Axial, Heine
for the Merc engine; Behrend (NB; not Behrend u. Ruggerbrecht), Luckenwalde, Reschke

For the CL III Germania
For the CL IIIc with the NAG engine, Heine

Do you want dimensions for these props?

The prop in your right-hand photo is either Integral (as JPW) or Imperial (they were the same firm). I think its Imperial.

I'll see if I have any photos of a HAN CL.

May I use your photo in my book, (Imperial)? I'll attribute to you.

Your drawing is wonderful!

With kind regards,

Bob

[Garuda]

Hi Dave!

Welcome to the forum!

I am an absolute fan of your work! I've seen it on The Aerodrome. The art work depicting "Stropp" as it would have looked when in service is of particular interest to me.

Regards,

David.

[BLOWHARD]

Thanks Garuda

Bob, great information! Only I'm working on the Halberstadt CL.II not Hannover. As far as I know only Mercedes D.III (and variants) were used. So no Argus at all. I would like to do profiles of the Hannover but I still don't have enough information on it.
At any rate, I'm fairly sure that Niendorf 9937 2740mm diameter 1900mm pitch was used. At least according to capture reports. Another report reads 2.4m diameter and 2m pitch. Maybe the same props, maybe not. Perhaps one is for the D.III and the other is for the D.IIIa?
According to Piotr Mrozowski the Halberstadt CL.II used Heine propellers. I have one photo showing an Astra propeller. But the propeller(s) in the photo above are unknown to me.
About using those photos, the one on the left is a detail scan from Schlachtflieger! by Duiven and Abbott, the one on the right is from Windsock Datafile 27 but it can be found in a number of places on the internet.
http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/Put...rman/139-1.jpg

I do have a series of photos of a Hannover CL.II from an Ed Ferko book that show a Germania propeller very clearly but it's shape is nothing like the propeller on the BFW built Halberstadt CL.II in the link I posted.

Thanks for the help, this is a very murky subject.

[Bob Gardner]

Blowhard,

Brain fade. Sometimes my few remaining brain cells wander off on their own.

I'll start again.

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Prop makers that I have recorded for the Halberstadt CL II and close relatives are;
Anker, Behrend (NB; not Behrend u. Ruggerbrecht), Integral, Imperial and Luckenwalde.

Do you want dimensions for these props?

The prop in your right-hand photo is made by Imperial

I'll see if I have any photos of a HALB CL.

May I use your photo in my book, (Imperial)? I'll attribute to you.

Your drawing is wonderful!

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Here are some broader details about the Halberstadt Company and its relationship with Integral props.

In 1912, the Kaiser introduced a campaign to improve the quantity and quality of Germany's air assets.

One result was the formation of the Deutsche Bristolwerke in the city of Halber (thus Halberstadt). They imported Bristol aircraft which came complete with props, some of which had Halberstädter decals. I know of two.

By 1913 the company was using props from the Intégrale Deutsche Luftschraube*, the German subsidiary of Lucien Chauvière's French prop business at Günderrodestrasse, Frankfurt am Main, with a branch at 47 Kaiser Wilhelmstrasse, Johannisthal.

When war broke out in 1914 the Intégrale Deutsche Luftschraube became the Integral Propellerwerke with a similar decal with the initials IPW added prominently in red. I enclose a photograph** of a CL II with an Integral prop and decals.

In 1916 the IPW went into receivership and reopened in Berlin as the Imperial Propellerwerke at Stübenrauchstrasse, Johannisthal, Berlin. Blowhard's photo shows an Imperial prop so the connection between Halberstadt and the IPW in its new form continued.

* Werner Hartmann Luftfahrtgeschichte in einer deutschen Fliegerstadt
** Professor Holger Steinle of the Deutsches Technikmuseum in Berlin

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

An afterthought; if anyone can identify the people in the photograph of the CL II above, please tell me.

Bob

[BLOWHARD]

Hi Bob, no problem about the mix-up. I can't even keep details about one plane straight let alone all the others
Imperial, yes, the decals fit! A very interesting history too. Do you know of any drawings of it or similar propellers? I'm also interested in drawings of the Heine and Niendorf propellers if you know where any can be found.
Dimensions would be really great too...for any or all propellers you mentioned.
I'm not familiar Anker or Behrend at all. I obviously have some studying to do.

About the photo, I would give you permission of course. The photo was published in Windsock Datafile 27, and is credited to Peter Grosz. I have know idea who has the photos. The one I posted isn't even my scan. I do own the Datafile but since the photo can be found online, I just pasted the link here.
This is a fairly good copy-
http://flyingmachines.ru/Images7/Put...rman/139-1.jpg
I really don't know about rights usage in a case like this, but I do know I can't claim ownership. Perhaps Ray Rimell might be able to help with the crediting of this photo.

[BLOWHARD]

That photo you posted is VERY interesting! I have no real knowledge of it but based on what little I know, it has some interesting details. The spinner is removed or never installed. Something you don't see too much on German CL.IIs but something common for CL.IIs used by the Polish. It has a finish that is seen on 2 different B.F.W. CL.IIs with German markings, and also like many of the Polish planes; dark or rich wood fuselage, pale gray (or light colored) cowlings and metal fittings, printed fabric on the wing undersides and what looks like a Mercedes D.IIIa engine, which I believe are more common on later CL.IIs.
The propeller looks pretty substantial, very large and beefy compared to the Luckenwalde Niendorf.
I have no idea about the people or where the photo might be taken. Who is the guy in the suit? A company representative? What company? The second of the two guys dressed for flying doesn't seem to have military trousers or boots. Was this a delivery of a new model, or taken at a demonstration or test flight? Maybe taken at a Flugpark?
Thank you very much for posting it!

-Dave

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Dave,

I believe it is an Integral prop. The white oval blob in the centre of the decal is in the shape of a wing.

It appears to be an anachronism in that production of Integral props stopped in summer 1916 and this CL II dates from 1917 or 1918, but the answer is that Integral props would have been in store and stock for some time before the Imperial props reached aircraft.

As an aside, I have similar difficulties momentarily when I discover a prop for a 100ps or 120ps Mercedes engine made in 1917 or 1918 with dimensions for an Albatros B II, for example. My initial thought is that can't be right, but of course this aircraft would only have been three years old and would continue to need replacement props. By then it would be a trainer or hack.

With kind regards,

Bob

[BLOWHARD]

Trainer is a good guess for the plane in the photo. I've asked two people about your photo. I'll let you know what they have to say. Where did that photo come from, and do you have a larger version of it?

[Bob Gardner]

It is unlikely to be a Bleicheroder prop. They are exceptionally rare props, and were made in mid and late 1918. I have only seen two examples, for the Argus 120ps and the Benz 150ps. They were made at a time of extreme austerity and shortages of war materiel and hence were made of pine. Also the examples I have seen have no Eisernes Kreuz. It fell out of fashion after von Hindenburg and Ludendorff's coup against the Kaiser in 1916, by when the Kaiser had become extremely unpopular.

The photo came from Professor Holger Steinle of the Deutsches Technikmuseum in Berlin where I think it was part of the Peter Grosz Archiv. I'll send you a copy at larger size by e-mail.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

I have to eat humble pie. I discovered that I have a high resolution copy of my photo of the Halberstadt CL II. On magnification the decal is from Germania.

Contritely,

Bob

[BLOWHARD]

You mean it's Germania rather than Imperial? Hmmm... Gotta go back to the drawing board