Need help to identify.

[valerie]

Hello,
I'm new here and I hope there's anyone who can help me to identify the following propeller.
My father and I have been searching several weeks to get more info of the plane this was used on, but we can't find that much. But I think it's an early one.
I looked around on this forum and I think that someone here can help us.

here are the markings:

N°31330
200PS
Benz
D285
St 180

And does anyone know the value of this one?

https://plus.google.com/photos/11463...7274870/albums

Thank you and kind regards.

[Bob Gardner]

Greetings Valerie,

Welcome to the forum.

Your prop is German and dates from 1918. It was almost certainly made by Hugo Heine in Waidmanslust in Berlin, although there is no sign of his stamp which he added to every other prop of his that I have seen.

The diameter (Durchmesser) is 2.85m and the pitch (Steigung) is 1.80m. It was fitted to a Benz 200hp (PS for Pferdestärke) motor.

It was used on several types of aircraft such as the LVG C V, DFW C V and Albatros C VII.

It has been refinished at some time and looks as though it has a new coat of varnish. This will reduce the value considerably. If offered on eBay it might make around €1000 EUR or $1000 USD.

With kind regards,

Bob

[valerie]

Thank you for your answer Bob.

Do you know it's from 1918 according to the serial number and can there be any reason why the stamp of Heine isn't there?

We also thought of several types of aircraft like the ones you said, but we had our doubts with the diameter of the propeller. We can't find much information about that.
We always find sizes a few cm's different than this one.

And did BENZ have propellers of his own?
While searching we found this in the specifications of a LVG C.VI.
"Two-blade Benz wooden propeller, 2.88 m"
Does it mean that it's a propeller from BENZ or does this refer to the engine again?

Thank you for the information you have given me.
Kind regards.

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Valerie,

Only Heine amongst German prop makers got into the 30,000 serial range in WW1. And your prop does have a Heine look about it. I don't know why it isn't stamped but variations occur frequently in the data stamped on a prop. At one time, the letter N in Heine was stamped upside down, which suggested that the stamper was illiterate.

Benz made engines not props. Props would be marked for an engine type and power. Most were Mercedes, but Benz accounted for perhaps a third of the total.

German army prop sizes were made to the specifications laid down by the Inspector of the Flying Troops Inspektion der Flieggertruppen known as Idflieg. For example Idflieg 30 Januar 1918 states that for a Benz IV 200ps in a C class aircraft the diameter had to be in the range 2950-3050mm and the pitch 1800-200mm and the prop had to be tested to 1350-1400rpm. Your diameter is less than this at 2850mm. This might be a special case or an earlier specification than early 1918. Also the Imperial German Navy used Benz engines with props of slightly smaller diameter than Idflieg props. But yours doesn't have the metal sheathing that Navy props had.

But I agree that almost no props exist with your dimensions on a Benz IV engine except for three at the Deutsches Technikmuseum in Berlin which I have failed to identify.

This situation is normal. German props can seldom be attributed accurately to an aircraft type; only to an engine type and class. British and French props can almost always be identified to a type of aircraft.

It takes about one and a half hours to research and write a reply such as this.

Mit freundliche Grüssen,

Bob

[valerie]

Ok. Thank you for your time and effort Bob. I appreciate it.

I have one more question that won't take that much of your time I think.

We're good at restoring old furniture. If we can mannage to carefully take the varnish off of it, would that increase the value?
Or could we better leave it that way?

Vriendelijke groet uit belgie.

Valerie

[Bob Gardner]

Ah! Ha! So you are Flemish. How is the Flemish Nationalist Party? Are you going to join NL or establish a free Flemish nation? Here in Britain we have watched with admiration your country running perfectly well with no Government at all for several months!

I don't know how your prop will react if you remove the varnish. There is always an element of doubt, so experiment on a small part out of sight on the back of the prop. If successful, try a larger part on the back of the prop. Having removed the modern varnish, you have a choice;

Firstly; polish with pure beeswax using small amounts of beeswax at a time. This might transform the prop. By the way if you have several colours of beeswax, use a light colour rather than a dark mahogany colour.

Secondly, if you are experienced in using original or modern French Polish, you might wish to try using that.

As this forum exists to help owners of early wooden propellers, please let us know what you plan to do and send us photographs every now and then.

With kind regards,

Bob

[valerie]

Hi,

my father has been busy past week. After a little thinking he decided to take the varnish off.

Like Bob said, he tried a little piece on the back of the prop and that went well.
The varnish started bubbling up without damaging the wood.

Then he applied the varnish remover on larger pieces with a paintbrush.
The varnish bubbled up again and he removed it with a flexible plastic little plate. (something that bakers use, we call it a "korn")
This way he wouldn't damage the propeller while scraping.
It was a very sticky mess as you can see on the photo's in the link below.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...20252560708849


Ok. The varnish was removed, but there still were some spots with sticky and greasy dissolved varnish on the propeller.
He could remove them with a bit of water and a little bit off regular dish-washing product.
All the sticky stuff came off without any problem.
Then he let the propeller dry for a day.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...21067596660001

After drying the propeller had a completely different color than before.
He turned out much lighter. The stamps are still the same and the ugly applied varnish is gone.

He started applying the beeswax little by little.
He choose a light colored beeswax like Bob said.

The propeller has a much finer look now.

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/1...21713553747633



Bob, is the color good or should we apply a layer with a darker color?

Kind regards,
Valerie

[pmdec]

Hi Valérie,

Thank you so much for your pictures! It's so rare that a forumer actually posts pictures after been told details about his propeller that you deserve the best acknowledgments from those who follow this woodenpropeller site! No kidding: I think it is the first time we are seeing such a report!

As Bob, I have to recognize that Belgian survived without government. Now, we have to recognize also they are making fine and clear pictures, far above the average seen there...

Avec mes meilleures salutations et mes remerciements renouvelés,
PM

@ Bob: what do you think about this added and screw fastened leading edge?

[Bob Gardner]

Valérie,

I echo everything Pierre-Michel has written.

Your father's workmanship is superb, your photographs are magnificent. Your English is perfect and you have taken the time to write us. I do not wish to embarrass you but I believe you are the best correspondant we have ever had on the forum.

So often, we moderators spend an hour or so answering a question in detail which receives little or no response. That's why I mentioned in my first reply how long it takes me to identify a difficult propeller. It wasn't directed at you. It was a general point for everyone who reads these threads that we are not computers but real people!

Valérie. What are the woods in the propeller? Ash and elm I think. I thought the darker brown wood was an African mahogany but now it looks like elm too.

Ash is Asche, Frêne
Elm is Ulme, Orme
Mahogany is Mahagoni, d'acajou

Pierre-Michel and Valérie; I don't know what the wood screwed to the leading edge is. Valérie, can you tell what type of wood it is? This propeller shows all the signs of a propeller made late in WW1 when the British blockade of German ports was starving Germany of resources. Ash and elm are not good woods for propellers. The wood of choice is walnut and mahogany. And I suspect the screwed wood on the leading edge is a hard wood, perhaps ebony, to replace brass which was also in short supply. Or perhaps it is an ablative shield or a sacrifical shield which can be easily replaced.

Valérie; send me your home address to aeroclocks att btinternet dott comm, written in this strange phonetic way to avoid the spam bots, and I will send you a CD with the chapter on Heine from my forthcoming book on German propeller makers of WWI.

With kind regards et aussi mes meilleures salutations !

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

A note to my fellow moderators

Lamar and Dave,

The thought occurs that we should have a letter of the month. for all the obvious reasons of encouragement and reward. No prize; just recognition.

With kind regards,

Bob

[valerie]

Hello,

First of all, thank you Bob and PM for the compliment towards me and my father.
He's very proud to hear that his workmanship is appreciated.
He's very happy that the propeller turned out this way because it's a nice addition to his WWI collection.

https://plus.google.com/photos/11463...08924514855457

He's been collecting WWI militaria for a few years and because off that we know how important it is to have good pictures and a lot of information.

He's also a member off "German helmet Walhalla" and we're going to post the pictures and information on that site to. Referring to your site and expertise.
The collectors on that site will be very interested in this object.
You can find it in a few days under the name "Willem" with "German propeller WWI" as title.

My father thinks the propeller is made of oak (eik) and pine (grenen)
He believes that the oak was used for strength and the pine for flexibility.
I took some more pictures of the layers.

On the pictures you can see the following layers. From front-side to the backside (From left to right on the picture)

-4 layers oak for the strength
-1 layer pine for flexibility
-1 layer oak
-1 layer pine
-1 layer oak
-1 layer pine
-2 layers oak

https://plus.google.com/photos/11463...10054934450801

My father thinks that the leading edge is from some kind of fruit-tree.
Nut, cherry,..
Those wood types are also darker in color and maybe they made that leading edge to ad more strength to the propeller because of the pine that's used.
Pine isn't so hard as oak.
All very common in Germany and vlaanderen.
Maybe they used their own wood types because they didn't have much recources to choose from, like bob said.

Bob,
Is the propeller turned in his more original state now?
Is there a different value now?
when you put everything together, can you say that it's a rare propeller then?

Sorry for all the questions but my father keeps asking.
His English is not so good, he can understand and read it, but can't write it so good.
I always help him, he calls me his personal secretary.
But I'm always interested in the things we search information for.

We would be very happy with the chapter on Heine you have.
I will send you my address.

Kind regards,
Valerie & Willem

[Bob Gardner]

Good Morning Valerie,

The conservation of your propeller is excellent, has made it much more desirable to a collector and perhaps has doubled its value. The colour is fine.

All WW1 propellers are very rare, particularly German props.

Now is not the time to sell a WW1 aircraft prop. Prices have fallen in Europe in the last twelve months and props offered for sale often do not sell. But I think prices will rise when, if, the present economic gloom lifts. Another effect on value will be the centenary of WW1. From next year, 2014, until 2018 there will be many programmes on television, exhibitions in museums and articles in magazines which will raise awareness of aviation in WW1. And therefore prices of aviation items from then will rise.

May I use some of your photographs in my books on German props? I want to illustrate the variety of woods the Germans had to use.

With kind regards and Vriendelijke groet uit Engeland,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Valerie,

If you have difficulty with my e-mail address, there are several e-mail links to me on my website, listed below.

Bob