OK, experts, I need help identifying the Chauviere propeller

[Dave]

I still have a few props that I have simply been unable to identify and would love any imput from members if they can.

This graceful British built Chauviere propeller is stamped as being used on an Anzani 125 HP engine and is stamped with a drawing number of 123 (presumably IPC 123, which is referenced in Bob's book but without aircraft usage). It is a left hand rotation, suggestion that it "may" have been used in a pusher configuration.

I am updating some web pages and would like to know if the information posted on the page linked above is in fact accurate, and more importanly if anyone has any idea what aircraft may have used this prop.

[pmdec]

Hi Dave,

I don't think it is a pusher, because the decals are on the extrados.

It seems that 125HP Anzani in England were 100HP in France...

On the first picture of this document: http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/moteurs_anzani.pdf the picture shows one of the first** 10 cylinders Anzani 100HP, and (if the picture is not flipped) the prop is clearly left handed.
BUT
I have two props for Caudron G3 fitted with 100HP Anzani and they are both right handed. So: ??? I had posted a question on a technical French forum.

** Later, they have a semi-circular exhaust pipe.

On the same document, pages 11 and 12 are about the 10 cylinders engine. It is written that a few hundreds were made in France between 1912 and 1917 and about 125 units were made in England in a Willesden plant. All these engines*** were for school planes : Caudron G-3 and G-4, Blackburn Land, Sea and White Falcon, Curtiss H4, Handley Page type G, Sopwith Tractor and Grasshoper and Vickers FB 12C.

*** The text is not clear about this "all": true "all" or the 125 made in England?

I will post the answer I hope I will have about left or right or both handed Anzani engine.

Regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Bon Jour Pierre-Michel,

I recall you told me that you had deciphered, in part, Chauviere's serial numbers. I copied the info but can't now find it. Could you tell me again!

Also, Dave's query brings me back to another puzzle about Chauviere's drawing numbers. His company (IPC) had two, three and four digit serial numbers. Does any one know why?

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi,

My remark about 125 and 100HP was an ignorant one: the Anzani 10 did exist with 3 different displacements with power 60, 100 and 125HP.

About the 100HP, it seems nobody has ever seen a left-handed Anzani 10 cylinders. I had found a picture (1st page of http://www.hydroretro.net/etudegh/moteurs_anzani.pdf ), but two different peoples told me the picture was probably flipped because the pilot jacket was butonned the wrong side on the picture.
These two people think the English made 125HP could be left handed, because the Dave prop was there and seems a tractor one. For confirmation, could Dave post a picture of the intrado side of the hub? If the prop is a tractor, this side of the hub have to show a tapered (not sure the word is the right one) central hole (tractor: prop intrado side toward engine).

Regards,
PM

[Dave]

Thanks, PM.

Here are photos of the "decal" side of the hub and "non decal side". The center bore on the non decal side is rounded but the measurement of the hole itself does not indicate a taper. I have found few (if any) propellers where the wooden hub had a taper to it. The metal hub was usually tapered to accomodate the tapered crankshaft, but the center bore is usually cylindrical, as on this Chauviere propeller.

The "witness marks" on the hub are consistent with the hub appearance on the photo you referenced in your link.

[Dave]

One other thought I had. Do you suppose that they may have experimented with counter-rotating propellers on the Caudron G4, which used the Anzani engines?

I believe that it is not difficult to re-configure a right hand engine to left hand operation, and I at one time owned both left hand and right hand propellers for a Bristol Fighter, both using a Rolls Royce engine. Those propellers had a drawing number differing only by the final digit.

[pmdec]

Hi Dave,

My "tapered" word was wrong: I wantred to speak about a cylindrical hole with one extremity enlarged. The French word is "congé" (see http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moulure, 4th paragraph, but I don't find the right English translation: kind of rounded jonction between the cylindrical hole and the flat side of the hub).

This rounded jonction have to be on the engine side of the hub, because the metallic piece which holds the propeller hub has this shape (inside the black circle):


So, this "rounded jonction" is on the opposite side of the decals and both (decals and rounded shape) tell us the prop is a tractor.

Your idea about G4 is very interesting. Now, we have just to find a picture... Or discover that somme people were wearing jackets buttoned "right on left" (opposite to French way)...

Regards,
PM

[Dave]

Yes, the propeller is clearly "rounded over" on the non-decal, flat surfaced part of the propeller, confirming it is a tractor application.

(Many props have that "roundover" or "corner round" on both sides of the center bore.)


Clearly this is a propeller that is asking for an explanation.

****************************************

I'm not positive what the correct terminology is in English, but I use roundover or corner round based on the tool that is used to create it.

The compound curve shown in your link is referred to in English as a "Roman ogee", but most of the propellers I've seen have a simple roundover type of cut on the edge.

[pmdec]

Hi Dave,

Bingo ! A guy (a very knowledged one to tell the truth) has found a picture showing without any doubt a left-handed Anzani engine. See this post: http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforu...p?nummsg=12899 which tells "The rare photo that is on the site www.pionnair-ge.com shows a Blériot in 1916 (derived from the twin engined LIII) fitted with four Anzani engines and suggests that those on the left do not rotate in the same direction as those right ... So, there would have been right- and left-handed Anzani 10 cylinders. Trying the same thing on a Caudron G4 is not absurd."

So, may be, you will find a picture of a G4, or another twin engine...
I have looked at Google Images with the names of aircrafts of Wiki Anzani 10 page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzani_...p#Applications) for more than one hour without finding any. So... Good luck!

Regards,
PM

PS: Save the picture, or made a screencopy, because posts on aeroforum will be archived after one month, and disappear totally after 3 monthes.

[D.Hicklin]

anzani run up

I know this isnt the right prop or the right engine, but purely for show and tell, I was there at Brodhead airport a few years ago when this Anzani 3 cylinder " fan " type engine was being ran.

Enjoy.
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

[Dave]

Hi Dave,

Bingo ! A guy (a very knowledged one to tell the truth) has found a picture showing without any doubt a left-handed Anzani engine. See this post: http://www.aerostories.org/~aeroforu...p?nummsg=12899 which tells "The rare photo that is on the site www.pionnair-ge.com shows a Blériot in 1916 (derived from the twin engined LIII) fitted with four Anzani engines and suggests that those on the left do not rotate in the same direction as those right ... So, there would have been right- and left-handed Anzani 10 cylinders. Trying the same thing on a Caudron G4 is not absurd."

So, may be, you will find a picture of a G4, or another twin engine...
I have looked at Google Images with the names of aircrafts of Wiki Anzani 10 page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzani_...p#Applications) for more than one hour without finding any. So... Good luck!

Regards,
PM

PS: Save the picture, or made a screencopy, because posts on aeroforum will be archived after one month, and disappear totally after 3 monthes.

Thank you, Pierre Michel. Amazing research effort!!!

(I have copied the photo here so we don't lose it.)



So the only question that remains is what airplane this may have been used on and why the propeller was manufactured in England. We may never know, but I'll keep looking . . .

[Dave]

Pierre-Michel,

I found another example, this one from a Russian website showing a Bleriot L III with counter-rotating Anzani engines, making reference to the Caudron G4 eventually outperforming the L III.

[pmdec]

Hi,

A more patient and advised researcher finally found one:

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ai...tml#post619791

Regards,
PM

[Dave]

Wow. Looks like the mystery is solved, and I'm assuming that those are the 125 HP versions of the Anzani 10.

Thanks, PM for your help as well!

[pmdec]

Hi,

The thread is an old one, but pics of left handed Anzani seem so rare I post it :



I do think the props are Grémont made and there is no doubt the one on the left is a LH and the one on the right is a RH, so, even if the pic is flipped, it shows a LH Anzani 10 cylinders.

It is from a thread of this Spanish forum : http://www.elgrancapitan.org/foro/vi...c.php?p=515518 where other interesting pictures are posted.

Regards,
PM