Another newbie looking for info

[Colenater]

Hi,
I recently bought a very old propeller from a guy that was cleaning out his garage. He had had it for about 40 years but it had been cruedly refinished even prior to that. He had started to strip the finish off a while ago, then quit and decided to just get rid of it. From what little I have learned from this site I am confident it was used on a Curtiss OX-5 engine. I know because I have the hub and it's measurements match the OX-5. The propeller itself is Mahogany 4" thick x 8" wide x 96" long laminated with 6 layers. It has copper tips that are approx. 18" long. I am planning on hanging it in my family room as a giant very slow moving ceiling fan. It's a real bummer that it had been refinished but I can't leave it the way it is so I am starting to strip it for refinishing. Don't worry, I work for a very high end millwork company and have access to a state-of-the-art finishing facility.

I have a few questions I would like to see if anyone could help me with:

1- What kind of sheen (glossiness) was used on these old props?

2- Since it was refinished, the letters/numbers are very faint and hard to read. Right next to the hub hole there are some faint letters that possibly read "CSUU" or something???(see pic) but I believe there are other letters that are missing. There is also a "T" about 6" away from the hub hole on one side and a "Z" or a "2" the same distance away on the other side.

3- If I can determine what brand this is, are there reproduction decals available or should I just stay away from those and let it be?

4- Did they put finish on the copper back in the day? I don't imagine they did but this one has finish slopped on it that I will need to strip off.

5- I'm missing 3 bolts/nuts for my hub and the center spanner nut if anyone knows where things like that might be found.

Sincere thanks to anyone who can help me with any of my questions above.

Best Regards

[Dave]

There was no "standard" finish of any kind, but probably most were glossy and usually just covered the sheathing as well. There were literally hundreds and perhaps a thousand or more different manufacturers around the time of WW1, so you'd just be guessing about which one manufactured yours, and the letters you describe don't sound characteristic of a specific common one at this point.

[Colenater]

Thanks Dave - I was afraid I'd not be able to identify this prop. So You think they usually sealed the copper along with the finish on the wood? I may have seen them both ways come to think of it. With a sealer on it, the copper will stay bright but without it, it will naturally turn to a darker brown patina. Do you have any ideas about where I can find some more bolts/nuts for my OX-5 hub?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any lists of the hundreds of factories that produced propellers you mentioned? The company I work for is 102 years old and before the 2nd generation owner died a few years ago, I remember him talking about how the company used to make propellers for the war effort among other things. I assumed it was WW2 but they could have done it for both wars. The records don't exist anymore but it would be very interesting to the family if they were listed. The name at that time would have been Salt Lake Cabinet & Fixture Co. or Fetzers Inc. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks again!

[Dave]

Thanks Dave - I was afraid I'd not be able to identify this prop. So You think they usually sealed the copper along with the finish on the wood? I may have seen them both ways come to think of it. With a sealer on it, the copper will stay bright but without it, it will naturally turn to a darker brown patina. Do you have any ideas about where I can find some more bolts/nuts for my OX-5 hub?

Just out of curiosity, do you have any lists of the hundreds of factories that produced propellers you mentioned? The company I work for is 102 years old and before the 2nd generation owner died a few years ago, I remember him talking about how the company used to make propellers for the war effort among other things. I assumed it was WW2 but they could have done it for both wars. The records don't exist anymore but it would be very interesting to the family if they were listed. The name at that time would have been Salt Lake Cabinet & Fixture Co. or Fetzers Inc. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks again!

Years ago I did a bunch of research at NASM and the Library of Congress, and I wrote down a bunch of names of manufacturers who had letters on file in the archives. I'll try to dig up that list and see if Salt Lake was on it.

[Colenater]

Thanks Dave. That would be neat if you have any information. The owners would like to know what kind of planes they made propellers for. I looked around and found an old photo of a propeller they made. I believe it was WW2. See attached.

[Dave]

The propeller in the photo is unusual. It's a left hand rotation and the leading edge sheathing looks a little "skimpy" compared to the more typical sheathing, which usually folded over the tips of the prop rather than just along the edge.

[oinkitt]

Conservation

Your statement that you work in a "state of tha art" finishing factory scares the hell out of me!!!

These props are NOT ment to have a modern finish on them.

They were probably reasonably glossy when they were first finished but over time they would become matt or low shean at best.

Your prop looks like it has seen sandpaper - never a good thing!!

If you need to strip it, best to use paintstripper and steel wool. If it has a poly finish it will be very hard to remove. Once you do remove it give it 4 coats of shelac, then get some brown umber or vandyke, apply it with a rag or a stippling brush to add some fake age to the finish. This techneque took me 20 years to perfect - if you have a good french polisher who is skilled at colour matching at your work it would be best to ask him about the process!!!!

[pmdec]

Hi,

Your statement that you work in a "state of tha art" finishing factory scares the hell out of me!!!

These props are NOT ment to have a modern finish on them.

They were probably reasonably glossy when they were first finished but over time they would become matt or low shean at best.

Your prop looks like it has seen sandpaper - never a good thing!!

If you need to strip it, best to use paintstripper and steel wool. If it has a poly finish it will be very hard to remove. Once you do remove it give it 4 coats of shelac, then get some brown umber or vandyke, apply it with a rag or a stippling brush to add some fake age to the finish. This techneque took me 20 years to perfect - if you have a good french polisher who is skilled at colour matching at your work it would be best to ask him about the process!!!!

I don't agree.

For me, there are only three ways for old props:
- 1 Or you want to keep the prop an "appearance of airworthy": the "aviation way",
- 2 Or you want to preserve a piece of history: the "museum way",
- 3 Or you want to show a decorative thing: the "antiquarian way".

In the first case, you have to do all it could be make as you want guarantee a secure use for flying. It had been done during WW1 with slightly damaged props. And often, the props were sandpapered, repaired, right pitch redone, and finally coated with new varnish and stamped again. In France, it was all described in official prescriptions, and by this way one obtained an airworthy propeller with specific markings, for a cost smaller than a new one. After WW1, some reddish varnished props were black lacquered and sometimes shielded to keep their airworthy capabilities.
So, sandpapering, "painting" and fitting new decals were a common (but controlled) practice all along the prop life.

In the second case, the only thing to do is to stop the decay process, and, possibly, "repair" very minor accidents, like gluing small parts of loose fabric or wood splinters.
If the prop original fabric and/or varnish have been removed, it is too late! It is simply not a good piece for a museum show. There are enough well preserved ones for all the museums but you have to admit that their number is limited. And don't forget those props were designed to be efficient and not to be pleasant, as were furniture and art objects.

In the third case, there are three sub-cases:
- 3a Trying to give its original look to a "museum quality" prop, by repairing all defects (adding some paint to missing parts of decals, replacing the missing parts of wood and fabric, hiding worm holes, etc). This prop will become a fake exceptionally well preserved one. Acceptable if sold or showed for restored, but definitely lost for museum use. And it will be very easy to "forget" the restoration and deceive somebody in the (near?) future…
- 3b The same with a poor state prop. There will be not a single authentic detail in this one, except for the shape. Quite a forgery … And totally deceiving to my opinion. And the best the "restoration" is done, the worst is the forgery.
- 3c The "honest antiquarian way": if he finds a "museum quality" propeller, he will sold it "as is", just being one more link in the chain of preservation (and taking its financial share for doing that). If he finds a very decay prop, depending of its customers, he can do what he wants (possibly nothing!) to make a fair profit. He can sell it "as is", giving the buyer the responsibility of choosing what to do, or decide to make a decorative item by "restoring" and varnishing the prop. Some buyers like those kind of things, probably by ignorance. Like plastic wood in modern cars…

All this, only my opinion.

Sorry for my Frenchie English,
PM

[oinkitt]

Hi,
I don't agree.

For me, there are only three ways for old props:
- 1 Or you want to keep the prop an "appearance of airworthy": the "aviation way",
- 2 Or you want to preserve a piece of history: the "museum way",
- 3 Or you want to show a decorative thing: the "antiquarian way".

In the first case, you have to do all it could be make as you want guarantee a secure use for flying. It had been done during WW1 with slightly damaged props. And often, the props were sandpapered, repaired, right pitch redone, and finally coated with new varnish and stamped again. In France, it was all described in official prescriptions, and by this way one obtained an airworthy propeller with specific markings, for a cost smaller than a new one. After WW1, some reddish varnished props were black lacquered and sometimes shielded to keep their airworthy capabilities.
So, sandpapering, "painting" and fitting new decals were a common (but controlled) practice all along the prop life.

In the second case, the only thing to do is to stop the decay process, and, possibly, "repair" very minor accidents, like gluing small parts of loose fabric or wood splinters.
If the prop original fabric and/or varnish have been removed, it is too late! It is simply not a good piece for a museum show. There are enough well preserved ones for all the museums but you have to admit that their number is limited. And don't forget those props were designed to be efficient and not to be pleasant, as were furniture and art objects.

In the third case, there are three sub-cases:
- 3a Trying to give its original look to a "museum quality" prop, by repairing all defects (adding some paint to missing parts of decals, replacing the missing parts of wood and fabric, hiding worm holes, etc). This prop will become a fake exceptionally well preserved one. Acceptable if sold or showed for restored, but definitely lost for museum use. And it will be very easy to "forget" the restoration and deceive somebody in the (near?) future…
- 3b The same with a poor state prop. There will be not a single authentic detail in this one, except for the shape. Quite a forgery … And totally deceiving to my opinion. And the best the "restoration" is done, the worst is the forgery.
- 3c The "honest antiquarian way": if he finds a "museum quality" propeller, he will sold it "as is", just being one more link in the chain of preservation (and taking its financial share for doing that). If he finds a very decay prop, depending of its customers, he can do what he wants (possibly nothing!) to make a fair profit. He can sell it "as is", giving the buyer the responsibility of choosing what to do, or decide to make a decorative item by "restoring" and varnishing the prop. Some buyers like those kind of things, probably by ignorance. Like plastic wood in modern cars…

All this, only my opinion.

Sorry for my Frenchie English,
PM

I generally agree with what you have said.

In reality it probably doesnt matter what this member does with his prop however there is still a right and wrong way to approach a restoration/consevation.

Every item has to be evaluated on its own merits. Lets face it, this prop will never see active service again - its going to be a decorator peice. It still should not have a modern poly finish applyed to it.