old integral prop

[allgss]

A local shop in my area has this prop and they have offered it for sale, my question is what period and what sort of plane would it have been used on, i think i have worked out the engine this prop was fixed to,60 hp "Gustavus Green" 4 cylinder water cooled engine?

Thanks in advance for any help
cheers
Gary

[allgss]

I did measure the prop, its stands 97 inch tall, the makers decals are different front and back on the blades

[allgss]

the details

[Bob Gardner]

Gary,

Welcome to our forum.

Your prop is an early British-sold prop of the Integrale Propeller Company (IPC). IPC was French, founded by Lucien Chauviere who devised the wooden prop as we know it. I think it dates from c1912. The Green engine was British and widely used at this time. It was made around 1910.

At this time IPC had several distributors in turn in GB who imported ready made props from France. I suspect that this is reflected in the two different decals, one British and one French, although the resolution is too low to see them in detail. During WW1 Chauviere was instrumental in setting up the British Integral Company, which started making British made props in about 1915, once they got their act together.

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi,

Very fine propeller!

The serial number is very close of this one: http://www.woodenpropeller.com/Integ..._-_Anzani.html
But ... Chauvière propellers numbers have something mysterious for me...

What is the shielding made of?

Regards,
PM

[allgss]

At this time IPC had several distributors in turn in GB who imported ready made props from France. I suspect that this is reflected in the two different decals, one British and one French, although the resolution is too low to see them in detail.

Bob,
Thanks for the welcome and the info, one Decal has a signature within it the other a wing and "British made" underneath it if that helps

[allgss]

What is the shielding made of?

Regards,
PM

PM

It looks like a white metal (zinc maybe) held on with copper nails/rivits, the guy in the shop said it was copper but I do not know it looked more like zinc to me.

I have talked him out of doing what he was going to do, that is clean and polish it all up to make it look better, I do not know if he will ever sell it as he is wanting £3.5K for the prop, do not know if that is a good price or way over the top to be honest but out of my range for having it hanging on the wall but it intrigued me to find out what is was as he did not know, He thought it was last used on a boat used on lake windermere

cheers
Gary

[Bob Gardner]

Thank you for these additional photos Gary. They would date the prop to at least 1915, I think, which is when IPC props were first made in Britain. That's about five years after the 60hp Green engine was made, which seems unlikely.

After Pierre-Michel's comment above about not understanding IPC serial numbers, I realise I don't either. Although I have a 17xxx serial number recorded for a prop probably made before WW1, I have just checked my records to discover a 16xxx example which was made c1916.

But nonetheless it's a delicious prop from an early engine.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Bob Gardner]

Gary, £3500 (about $5600) is much too much. It's an obscure prop and in ordinary condition. Even though we few specialists recognise its virtue, this does not translate into a high monetary value. Even much desired props from aircraft such as the Camel and SE5A don't command such prices.

With kind regards,

Bob

[allgss]

Gary, £3500 (about $5600) is much too much.

Bob,
Thanks for the info, when he told me that price today I nearly swallowed my tongue, he said he had been offered £3k for it years ago! so was wanting £3.5K for it now but I did not honestly know if that was a good price or not as its outside my collecting area, although I did think it would look good on the wall in my Den

Cheers
Gary

[pmdec]

It looks like a white metal (zinc maybe) held on with copper nails/rivits, the guy in the shop said it was copper but I do not know it looked more like zinc to me. .../...

Thank you Garry for the picture and comments. I agree it don't look like copper! Perhaps the shielding has been added by the user.

I also agree with Bob, the price is too high, but I think the prop may be from before 1915. It seems reading this page http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchi...0-%200690.html (second paragraph on the right) that there was British made Chauvière in 1912, ... but I don't know anything about when there was specific decal. As yours has both, I think the prop may be one of the first made in England, but it is only supposition.

Regards,
PM


PS: Please, if you go back to the shop, ask the seller he does not "clean and polish it all up to make it look better"!!!

[Bob Gardner]

Thank you Pierre-Michel,

I had missed this in the Flight archive and I'll transfer it to my Chapter on Integral in my book on British props. This brings me back to thinking that that the prop dates from 1912. Is this what you think? The only problem is the high serial number. Perhaps 17123, (for example) indicates type 17 and prop 123, or even type 1, number 7123. I think I shall have to give up worrying about IPC serial nos!!

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Hi Bob,

.../...Is this what you think? The only problem is the high serial number. Perhaps 17123, (for example) indicates type 17 and prop 123, or even type 1, number 7123. I think I shall have to give up worrying about IPC serial nos!!

With kind regards,

Bob

It is the same for French Chauvière props. But I think you are right: the first or the two first numers may be kind of serial or code. Perhaps in accordance whith who made the prop. I have not seen a sufficient number to be sure.
For the date, I agree with you: probably between 1912 and 1914. It's the first time I see a prop with decals on both sides.
Regards,
PM

[Bob Gardner]

Hi Pierre-Michel,

I haven't seen one with two decals like this before either.

LC's attempts to sell props in Britain did not go smoothly. He had three agents until 1912, with all of whom he was dissatisfied, so he set up the UK Integral Prop Co. It was probably under-financed initially because prop manufacture did not get properly under way until 1915. In 1918 LC sold the company.

With kind regards,

Bob

[Dave]

This discussion with Bob and Pierre got me to re-photograph the Chauviere propeller for the Anzani 10 engine and to get photos of another Chauviere prop that I got several years ago.

I've uploaded them to their own web pages.

Chauviere for Anzani 10 engine.

and

Early unknown Chauviere propeller.