Info on old wood propeller

[DLVIAJR]

My name is Dave and I would like to get some info on this propeller. How old, who made it, what plane it was on and what is it valued at? Here is the info that was on the hub and some pics. If you need anymore info or pics, let me know.you can reply to the site or to my email. viapeaches34@yahoo.com

Thanks,
DLVIAJR
info
0274
sp VII
usa
hs 150 hp
series no.2
no.1299prop.jpg

prop2.jpg

prop3.jpg

prop4.jpg

[Dave]

Looks like it's for a SPAD VII

0274 - probably a serial number
sp VII - abrreviation for SPAD VII
usa -
hs 150 hp - Hispanzo Suiza 150 HP engine
series no.2 - blueprint number

What's a little peculiar is the USA stamping combined with "Serie no. 2", which is closer to the French method of stamping drawing numbers. There was a Serie 2 French propeller made by Gallia that is 2.55 meters in length with a 70mm center bore, so see if yours is the same. I'm just guessing that this is a U.S. manufactured propeller for use on one of the imported SPAD's that the U.S. experimented with at the end of WW1. There were quite a few of them around for a while. Look closely for small "SFA" inspection stamps, which would indicate French manufacture. If absent, then it's probably US manufactured.

The hub certainly looks "French" in style. Here's a Gallia propeller for a later SPAD XI, a variation of the SPAD VII.

[pmdec]

Hi DLVIAJR,

Same as Dave : prop for a SPAD VII, but I don't think it is a Gallia. May be a SHAM - De La Granville.
Those very special props are made of thin laminations, about 5 millimeters (~ 1/5") thick, with 2 thicker (about 20 millimeters) on each side of the hub.
Markings are certainly French "mood" (It seems there are French airworthiness stamps, but I can't be sure as pics are too small).
Could you post larger pics of each side of the hub (2 of flat sides and 2 of rounded sides) ? If you can't post them directly, send them to my email : pmdecombeix at yahoo dot com
If I am right, props length has to be 2.48 meters (98") and tips protection may be made of leather, black painted with transversal gold writing "SHAM".

With regards,
PM

[DLVIAJR]

More Pics and Info on Prop SP VII from DLVIAJR

Hi Dave and pmdec
Sorry it took so long to get the pics back to you, had to get through the holidays. Prop length is 98 inches. The tips are painted black but no leather on them. There are 19 laminations, each are bigger than 1/8 inch but smaller than a 1/4 inch. Then there is one piece that is almost 2 inches thick that is where the serie no 2 is stamped. There are 2 symbols below the 1299, do you know what they are or what they mean? Would like to know what king of plane this prop went on and is there any way of telling if it was on a famous plane. Also would like to know what kind of value the prop has or if you would know someone who could appraise it. If you need any more info or pics of the prop, let me know throught the site.
Thank you for your help,
DLVIAJR.

P.S. Do you know what year it was made?

[Dave]

I think that the stamped circled in yellow is probably the French SFA stamp, although there isn't enough detail to be sure.

It's extremely unlikely that this propeller came from a "famous" plane, and it's unlikely that you will ever find documentation to determine any specific airplane it may have been used on.

Value is just a wild guess at this point. It looks almost certainly to have been refinished, which reduces its value considerably, but the SPAD VII was a "popular" plane, which adds some value to the prop. I think Bob Gardner has a better grasp of valuation, as he buys and sells them much more than I do, so you might try contacting him at aeroclocks.com if he doesn't respond here.

[Bob Gardner]

Here in the UK the prop might sell at auction for around 2000 USD. I suspect that US prices are lower. The prop was made in 1917 for a fighter aircraft used by the AEF in France, and is exceptionally rare.

With kind regards,

Bob

[pmdec]

Your prop is a SHAM serial 2. SHAM (Société des Hélices Armées et Matricées, that could be translated in Company for Reinforced and Stamped Propellers) has been founded by H. De La Granville and Louis Paulhan (the well known pilot) around 1916. They made very special propellers with thin laminations (standard props are made with 4/5" laminations). Laminations are cut to fit, then stacked with a glue impregnated piece of fabric between each lamination. This "bloc" is then pressed into a kind of heated mold, so the prop acquires its final shape. When cold, after few hours, man have only to cut the small "steps" on one side, the other being quite finished : you can see on your prop there are many marks of laminations edges on one side (the extrados) and that is the same lamination all over the other side (intrados) as this SHAM made Ratmanoff serial HS for Spad XIII :



There is a patent where fabric is replaced by thin perforated metal sheets, but I never saw one: it's easy to control this with a metal detector. The five SHAM props I have tested have all fabric and no metal sheet.

Those props are not common but not as rare as Bob thinks. SHAM has especially made props with other brands characteristics under license, mainly Éclair but also Lumière and Ratmanoff. Their own designs, as yours, are much rarer, and it seems there are only two serial designed by SHAM : serial 2 and serial 4

Characteristics of SHAM serial 2 : Total length 98" (more exactly 97"5/8 ). Hub thickness 5"1/32 with a 2"3/4 central hole. Maximum blade width is 7"3/8. They were "approved" for SPAD VII (7 in Roman numerals) fitted with a 150 HP Hispano-Suiza engine (Aa model) but perhaps were also mounted on SPAD VII with 180 HP Hispano-Suiza engine (Ab model) : that is not clear.

Yours have the prop number 1299. I think serial 2 N°1299 has been made between late 1917 and 1919. The "signs" under prop number are:
- an "omega" (a Greek letter) as all the SHAM props I saw,
- the French airworthiness stamp : a square with SFA inside, for Service des Fabrications de l'Aviation (Aviation Fabrications [Military] Service). Beside it, Y letter (or "gamma" Greek letter, I can't see for sure) which is the personal mark of a military controller. There have to be three more SFA stamps on one of the flat sides of the hub, with two numbers beside: I think I see a "3" and a "10" but I am not sure: can you post a clear picture of those for my database (the ones that are into the blue rectangle on the picture)?

I think your prop has been refinished. Original ones were varnished with reddish or maroon varnish and many of them have their tips reinforced with fabric or leather. The two I bought in France last year were not refinished. One have its two leather tips but part of its varnish and decals gone (paid 750€, about 1000US$) and the other was in very good shape, with fabric shielding (paid 1000€, about 1300US$).
I don't know about prices in US, but this is a true piece of WW1 history and, as Dave said, SPAD VII is very popular. I think your prop came in US with an aircraft as you can read in this extract of French Aircraft of the First World War (Davilla et Soltan).

Regards (and sorry for my frenchie English ...) and my best wishes for 2011 to all !
PM

Remark: I don't know what is the "0274" number. "Font" is very different of other markings and is probably not a SHAM marking. Perhaps a US AEF stock number if the prop history is the one told by Davilla & Soltan. What do you think, Dave ?

[Geertse]

@pmdec
This is exactly like the propeller boss i have.
It is marked serie numero 2.
So I assume it's for a Spad VII?
Thanks for all the info!
Grtz