WWI vintage French propeller

[Howard]

A colleague has been attempting to ID a French WWI era propeller. The engraved numbers and letters are fuzzy but he believes the markings read:

SFA
--Identified as (Service des Fabrications de l'Aviation)

Tonkilaque S.E.L.T.
--Identified as (Société d'Exploitation des Laques Tonkinoises)

Blindage Sham
--Unknown(?)

On Propeller Hub

D 8-8 B
No 706
705

SKPIE 804
No 705 hp
D 8 8
EOIPEB
BOIS OR (VOISON?)

Dimensions
109in. (9.08ft)

A photo is attached.

Would appreciate any help.

Thanks,

Howard

[Dave]

I think the stamping is "Serie 804" which is the drawing number originally assigned to Regy, and your prop has typical Regy design characteristics. It was most likely used on a Salmson A2A with the Canton Unne 260 hp motor.

Here's one of mine with the same Series number, and it's probably an identical propeller.

[pmdec]

Hi,

Régy serial 804 is in American Expeditionary Forces Air Service (1917-1919) papers :
Diam : 2.75
Pitch : 2.10
Width : 0.225
(All in meters)
Motor : Sal. 270 HP
Airplane : Salmson Type 2

SHAM = Société des Hélices Armées et Matricées (Company for Armored and Stamped Propellers), owned by Paulhan and De La Granville (who made also multilaminated propellers under license for Eclair, Ratmanoff and others. They have an armoring process licensed under French law.

The propeller is not painted but lacquered, but I think the Tonkilaque decal does not exist before 1919.

If you post detailed pictures of the markings, perhaps there is more to tell about your prop.

Regards,
PM

[Howard]

I think the stamping is "Serie 804" which is the drawing number originally assigned to Regy, and your prop has typical Regy design characteristics. It was most likely used on a Salmson A2A with the Canton Unne 260 hp motor.

Here's one of mine with the same Series number, and it's probably an identical propeller.

Dave,

Thanks for your quick response. I had previously noticed the similarity with your artifact; however, the markings are very different, so that has me further investigating.

Howard

[Howard]

Thanks for your quick response. The information is useful. I do not immediately have other photos, but will make an inquiry.

Howard

[pmdec]

Hi,

Re-reading this thread, I think there is something strange with this Régy serial 804.

In "American papers" (I don't know if there are English ones), the higher Régy number for WW1 prop is 395 with two exceptions:
- N° 804 for Salmson 2A2, there: http://www.footnote.com/image/19794720/#19794720
- and n°537 for Spad XI, there: http://www.footnote.com/image/19794720/#19794767
But those numbers are not on the Régy page: http://www.footnote.com/image/19794720/#19794926

In (French) STAé papers, the higher Régy number is 372, but those papers where made at the end of 1917, earlier than American ones. There is a propeller with same characteristics as 537 with number 337. So, 537 is probably a miswriting.

May 804 be the same? I don't find any prop in French list nor in American one with the serial 804 characteristics.

It will be very interesting seing good pictures of the markings of those two "série 804"...

Regards,
PM

[Howard]

Thanks again for your assistance. However, we are not able to locate the reference "American papers," and could not open your related Internet links.

We will attempt to provide photos of the markings.

Howard

[pmdec]

Hi,

Thanks again for your assistance. However, we are not able to locate the reference "American papers," and could not open your related Internet links.

We will attempt to provide photos of the markings.

Howard

"American papers" : see post #3 : full name is Gorrell's History of the American Expeditionary Forces Air Service, 1917-1919. Propellers lists are in chapter 10 of L section. This book is free to access, but for downloading you have to suscribe.

For me, links are "good", but you have to be patient as sometimes pages from FootNote takes a very long time loading (quicker with FireFox ?).

I think Régy 804 is a miswriting in "American papers", as it seems not possible this number exist before 1920 for a Régy prop. In other hand, it would be an incredible fortuity your prop and Dave's one do have the length indicated in the book. So : ???

Airworthy authorities stamps may give an approximative date. Until 1920, they are SFA (French authorities) stamps : small squares with SFA letters inside. The letter or the sign just near the square may give an indication : can you read them (there are one or two on round sides, and three on flat side of the hub) ? The sign may be a capital, a script or a "gothic" letter, roman or greek.
Latter, airworthy authorities stamps are small hexagons and there is a complete date on the flat side, just around central bore, with two possible patterns :
- dd "C or CV" mm "C or CV" yy
- dd [hexagon] mm [hexagon] yy

Regards,
PM

[Veloce]

Régy "SERIE 804" could be "SERIE 301"

Hi,

If you look at STAé datas, you can see a 301 serie for VOISIN 7A2 aircraft.

If the diameter is really 9.08 feet / 3 mètres, It could be a possible identification.

7A2 was powered by a 160 HP Renault.

Regards

EM

[Veloce]

Mistake conversion, 9.08 ft are 2.77 meters

The 9.08 ft diameters, are there right?

Regards

EM

[pmdec]

Bonsoir Eric !

Hi,

If you look at STAé datas, you can see a 301 serie for VOISIN 7A2 aircraft.

If the diameter is really 9.08 feet / 3 mètres, It could be a possible identification.

7A2 was powered by a 160 HP Renault.

Regards

EM

I think what Howard reads in the first post as "BOIS OR (VOISON?)" has nothing to do with VOISIN. It is BOIS Or:
BOIS (WOOD in English)
OR (Or ?) is abbreviation for Orme (Elm in English).
Name of the wood(s) employed are frequently stamped on French propellers after 1917.

The word "EOIPEB" may be "EQUIPE B". On propellers made by subcontractant Selmersheim, I have seen two times EQUIPE R. As there is no accent on capital letters, I don't know it is "équipe" ("SQUAD" in English) or "équipé" (FITTED WITH in English)". If "squad", may be it is the squad B who made the prop. If "fitted with", perhaps it is a construction detail wich is named. On those two props I seen this "EQUIPE R", there was also "COLLE CASEINE" stamped, that is casein glue in English.

On attached images (same image cut in three because 280 pix height limitation ...) :
COLLE CASEINE ("Casein glue")
EQUIPE R (no sure, but I think "Squad R")
BOIS AH ("Wood AH", that is Honduras mahogany).

Bonne soirée,
PM