PDA

View Full Version : Identifying WWI prop


AFBreest
05-26-2015, 01:33 AM
Hello,

Thanks for setting up this forum! My dad just passed down his WWI propeller to me that he bought from antique shop in London 30 years ago. He was told at the time it came from an Avro that flew in WWI.

Any help in identifying what aircraft it came from would be appreciated.

The markings on the prop are:

DRG P23
D 8-5' P 6-10
TR_CTOR( I couldn't identify the 3rd letter)

110 CIERGHT RH(not positive on the IE)
1579( not positive on the 9)

The final markings include four small boxes right next to each other with the same markings- they are:

A.I.D.
357

See pictures posted as well.

Thanks in advance!

Best,

Andrew

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 01:34 AM
Additional photo

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 01:38 AM
Extra photo

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 01:39 AM
Extra photo 4

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 01:40 AM
Extra photo 5

Dbahnson
05-26-2015, 10:07 AM
The drawing number, P23 is listed for use on a Nieuport, although it doesn't specify the model. Other markings indicate a Clerget 110 HP engine, Right hand tractor application, and diameter and pitch.

The AID is an inspection stamp from the Aeronautical Inspection Department

pmdec
05-26-2015, 06:00 PM
Hi,
The shape is strangely like Régy French props!
Could you post clear close-ups of the two "flat" sides of the hub?
And give the exact length of the prop?
Regards,
PM

Dbahnson
05-26-2015, 10:21 PM
Hi,
The shape is strangely like Régy French props!


I noticed that as well. It looks very similar in design to this Regy
prop (http://woodenpropeller.com/WaringGillow.html).



http://woodenpropeller.com/forumvB/attachment.php?attachmentid=5335&stc=1&d=1432689672





















.

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 10:37 PM
Thanks for the quick feedback!

I just measured the prop and it measured 8 feet 5 inches. Which makes since with the marking

D 8-5'

Additionally, it appears there's an additional number on the prop but it's quite faded. I believe it's 13. It appears above the name of the 110 CIERGHET RH line.

Also, attached is a more detailed photo of the flat portion of the hub.

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 10:38 PM
Thanks for all of the help thus far!

Picture 2

AFBreest
05-26-2015, 11:37 PM
After doing a little follow up research it appears that the Nieuport 16 and Nieuport 17 were both powered by a 110 HP LeRhone engine.

I couldn't find any caudron aircraft powered by a 110 hp engine.

Any chance it came off of an AVRO aircraft like my dad was originally told?

Thanks!

Dbahnson
05-27-2015, 07:28 AM
Yes, it has unfortunately been sawn in half at some point.

pmdec
05-27-2015, 08:44 AM
Hi,

Can you post:
- larger and clearer pics of the "flat" sides,
- one of the bottom lamination of the pic which read 110 CLERGET: it seems there is a letter there, just on the left of the saw line.

Regards,
PM

AFBreest
05-27-2015, 02:54 PM
Hopefully these help!

Front side

AFBreest
05-27-2015, 03:01 PM
Backside of prop.

AFBreest
05-27-2015, 03:06 PM
And I see the extra writing. I believe it states:

13
110 CLERGET RH
1576 ( the number 6 could also be a 0, 8, 9)

Bob Gardner
05-27-2015, 05:00 PM
Hi AF,

The drg number P23 is a drawing number of the British & Colonial Company listed for the Nieuport 17, powered by the 110hp Clerget engine. The prop may have been made for British Nieuports by this company but it might equally have been made by another company using the P23 drawing.

French Nieuports were bought by the British in WW1, and came with engines and props which were then made under licence in GB. So PM is correct that the prop design is French. P23 is the drawing number of the B & C copy. Only a small number of these Nieuports were bought for the RFC. They partially equipped four RFC squadrons.

The diameter of 8' 5" translates as 2570mm. I have recorded one other with a smaller diameter of 2496mm, a difference which is outside the design limits, so the prop may have been used on some other aircraft as well as the Nieuport 17.

With kind regards,

Bob

AFBreest
05-28-2015, 10:44 PM
Bob and PM,

Thanks for all of the great info on this prop! It's great to have a little more accurate history on it since it's been in our family the last 30 years.

You both mentioned the drawing number on the prop linking it to the Nieurport 17 aircraft. What database are you drawing from to look that information up? Is it online somewhere or in a book I can purchase?

Thanks!

Andrew

Dbahnson
05-29-2015, 07:24 AM
You both mentioned the drawing number on the prop linking it to the Nieurport 17 aircraft. What database are you drawing from to look that information up? Is it online somewhere or in a book I can purchase?


Sure is. Bob wrote the books (http://www.aeroclocks.com/Catalog_pages/Print_books.htm) listing all the available information on both British and German propellers.

You won't find a more comprehensive source anywhere in the world.

pmdec
05-30-2015, 08:24 PM
Hi,

If the prop has been made by Régy, it would have a "stamp" on the blades (each side of the hub) like those:
http://woodenpropeller.com/forumvB/attachment.php?attachmentid=4814&d=1409602806
http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/14/14/01/64/mae_po10.jpg

They read: "Les Fils de Régy Frères" (The Sons of Régy Brothers) and "HÉLICES RF" (RF PROPELLERS).

They could be very faint.

If they are not there, it would say, IMHO, that the prop has been made by a licensee in France or in England.
Bob could have more info: why there are no batch and prop numbers (if made in England) and why measurements are feet and inches (it seems to me that in the WW1 era, English props measurements were ine millimeters). It could be because it was made in France (and French prop makers thinking about feet and inches easier or mandatory in England?).

Regards,
PM

Bob Gardner
05-31-2015, 09:04 AM
Bonjour Pierre-Michel,

I agree. This is not a French made prop. It carries entirely English markings. And I'm sure from your posts that it is of French design, in this instance given a British & Colonial Co drawing number of P23, where the designator letter P indicates B & C. The British could not import sufficient French aircraft, engines and props during WW1 so they were made in Britain under licence.

There are no batch numbers ( G & N numbers) because the prop (and Nieu 17) pre-dated September 1917 when the newly formed Air Board started allocating them.

As the French were the world-leading designers of aero-engines and props at the start of WW1, it became the convention to use their nomenclature, in this case mm for millimetres; hence 2570mm. There was a short period in WW1 when the British used Imperial measurements; hence 8ft 5inches. Not only was it done for a short time but only a few makers did it. As you, the French, and us British had been enemies for at least a thousand years of invasion and warfare, perhaps it was a momentary reversion to type!

Avec le Respect,

Bob

pmdec
06-02-2015, 07:54 AM
Hi Bob,

Thank you for these infos. And yes, I think it is a Régy design, even if Grémont props have quite the same shape: Attached pic is a Grémont serial S.

Regards,
PM

AFBreest
07-13-2015, 12:34 AM
Hi Bob,

Thanks again for all of the great info. I've built a mount for the prop and have it displayed quite nicely at my place. I think I may go ahead and order one of your books. Can you recommend which book would have the most information related to the prop I have in this thread?

Thanks,

Andrew

Bob Gardner
07-13-2015, 09:41 AM
Andrew,

None of my books describe a prop like yours. They describe British and German WW1 props. Yours is French and we are all waiting for Pierre-Michel to publish his book on Les Hélices Français.

But one of my books (Design & Manufacture of British WW1 Props) has about seven pages which describe the pioneering work of Lucien Chauvière whose work totally dictated the design of your prop. And Part Two of my British series has about fifty pages which describes the British & Colonial Prop company who made your prop, probably under licence. But none of these 50 pages has any relevance at all to your prop.

I suggest I email you a pdf of the seven pages on Chauvière.

With kind regards,

Bob

AFBreest
07-18-2015, 01:54 PM
Bob,

Thanks for offering to send that small PDF. I would gladly take it!

I've really enjoyed all of the information you've given me so far. I'm a C-130 pilot in the states and love getting all this early prop history. I may still get your second book as well. It would be cool to have a little history on the company that produced my prop. Does the book by chance include any info on the Nieu 17 being built under contract by the British?

My email is afbreest@comcast.net

Thanks again,

Andrew

Bob Gardner
07-18-2015, 05:08 PM
Greetings Andrew,

I emailed the description of Lucien Chauvière several days ago. Part Two of my series on British prop makers describes B & C in general but not in the specific, so there isn't a description of your prop.

Some data has come to light recently that might enable me to write a complete book about B & C propellers, but not yet!

With kind regards,

Bob

Bob Gardner
08-06-2015, 12:15 PM
Andrew,

Have you received the pdf about Lucien Chauvière that I emailed to you several days ago?

Bob

AFBreest
08-11-2015, 12:25 AM
Bob,

I have! I must appologieze for my delayed response. I have been on the road the last several weeks and am just now getting settled back at home.

I really did enjoy your PDF excerpt though. It's great to have a sense of how the propeller was designed and built. I just passed the PDF on to my dad who previously owned the prop for the past 30 years-- I know he's going get a kick out.

And you'll have to post a follow up if you go forward with a new book!

Best regards,

Andrew