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Bob Gardner
02-09-2015, 07:04 AM
A note to my fellow forumites to let you know that in the next twelve months I shall publish in spread-sheet format on CD;

1. My database on German WW1 aircraft propellers, about 1000 lines of data describing maker, diameter and pitch, engine and aircraft type where known.

2. And my database of British WW1 aircraft props, which runs to about 2000 lines of data.

If you have a British or German WW1 prop that you have not told me about (many of you have for which I am most grateful) or if you have any documents from the time which list propellers, please let me know.

With kind regards,

Bob

Dave; could you make this a sticky please.

JZMRZ
05-03-2015, 02:28 PM
This propeller my father had for many years.
The numbers on it are:
D2971, P3170
G571NG4 (I think, not sure on the 5 which might be B, and the G might be 6)
140 HP RAF
Can you identify this one please?
Jeff & Maz

Bob Gardner
05-03-2015, 04:46 PM
Jeff & Maz,

Thank you for your information.

Your prop is very probably from a WW1 reconnaissance aircraft from late 1917 or early 1918, the RE8. It is four bladed.

The data translates as;
D2971 The diameter of the prop in mm
P3170 The pitch of the propeller in mm
140hp RAF The 140hp engine designed and made by the Royal Aircraft Factory (hence RAF)

The key information is the drawing number, which you haven't mentioned, which is almost certainly T6296, where the designator letter T indicates the Royal Aircraft Factory.

With kind regards,

Bob

Mike L
05-06-2015, 06:18 PM
Jeff & Maz,

Thank you for your information.

Your prop is very probably from a WW1 reconnaissance aircraft from late 1917 or early 1918, the RE8. It is four bladed.

The data translates as;
D2971 The diameter of the prop in mm
P3170 The pitch of the propeller in mm
140hp RAF The 140hp engine designed and made by the Royal Aircraft Factory (hence RAF)

The key information is the drawing number, which you haven't mentioned, which is almost certainly T6296, where the designator letter T indicates the Royal Aircraft Factory.

With kind regards,

Bob
Hi Bob,
Please let me know how I can sign up for a copy of your British propeller database on CD, and the cost.
I have a DH4 4-blade prop DRG2442, for a RAF 3A engine, batch G299 (or 289),
N.1
Could you tell me a little more about it?
Many thanks
Mike L, Urchfont.

Bob Gardner
05-07-2015, 07:08 AM
'Morning Mike,

I am about six months away from publishing my databases on CD. I first have to finish and publish the last in my series of books on WW1 German props. I'll put a note here and on my website as both things come to market.

I have recorded your prop before, presumably from the man you bought it from.

The drawing number is AM2442, where AM indicates AIRCO who built all the WW1 aircraft designed by Geoffrey de Havilland, and this prop was fitted to both the DH4 and DH9 with various engines. The DH4 is recorded with the RAF3A engine of 200hp but I have not found any reference to the DH9 using the RAF 3A engine. It was often fitted with the BHP 230hp engine.

The specified diameter and pitch for the prop were 3050mm and 3670mm respectively but makers were allowed small variations due to production tolerances; hence yours at 3048 vice 3050 and 3640 against 3670mm.

I have recorded only one maker of this prop, other than AIRCO, which was WT Lord. The Ministry of Munitions paid £35-10s-6d for a similar size of four-bladed prop.

I believe the contract for batch number 289 was issued in Autumn 1917, but a batch of 500 props made by Bristol for the Bristol Scout, with batch numbers from 302 to 306 was delivered in January and February 1918. It is likely that a three month gap between the issue of the contract and delivery was normal.

As ever, there is a degree of supposition in my interpretation of the data that I have gathered, so my views should not be thought of as immutable fact.

With kind regards,

Bob

Bob Gardner

JZMRZ
05-10-2015, 05:38 AM
What does the G57IN64 indicate?
I've checked again and it is a 6 not a G.
Thanks for your information.
Marian

Bob Gardner
05-10-2015, 06:41 AM
Marian,

From Autumn 1917 propeller production was centralised under the Air Board, which later was renamed as the Air Ministry. From this time all propellers were made in batches of 100, indicated by the letter G and each of the 100 props was numbered with a prefix of N. Hence G571 N64 is the sixty-fourth propeller made in batch 571.

These batch numbers can occasionally be dated from known contracts. But it seems that there was often a three month gap between the contract date and the date of delivery.

Your prop batch number 571 dates (probably) from late 1917 and might have been delivered in the Spring of 1918.

With kind regards,

Bob

Bart
05-31-2015, 10:42 AM
Hello,

I would be glad to know more about my propellor with the following registration details:

N LIO N
D 315
H 260
HEINE
40796

It has had a clock inside the hole but it is easily removed.

Thanks in advance!

Bob Gardner
05-31-2015, 04:49 PM
Greetings Bart,

Heine were a German firm, almost the only one to survive the desolate economic period of German aviation from 1919 to 1926.

Your prop was made around 1927-28 for an aircraft using the British Napier Lion 450hp aero engine. (Heine made its 50,000th prop in 1930). Several German airlines and aircraft used this engine, particularly in the Dutch Fokker XIII, but this prop is not from that aircraft which had a prop of a different pitch. I have recorded about five or six Heine Napier Lion props and they seem, as far as one can judge from such a small sample, to have been used on three types of aircraft with the Napier engine.

With kind regards (und freundliche Grüssen, Wenn Sie Deutsch sind! )

Bob

Bart
05-31-2015, 05:05 PM
Greetings Bob,

Thank you very much. I'm from Holland but no stranger to the German language, so 'herzlichen dank'!

Do you have any information how much it is worth? I know this depends on some criteria but I would be glad if you can give a broad range.

You have been of great help already, best regards!

Bart

PS: Is there any way I can see if the propellor has actually been used? Maybe some markings on the wood?

Bob Gardner
05-31-2015, 06:10 PM
Bart,

If you can, post a photograph of the prop, of both the entire prop and a close up of the hub top surface. If a flown example, the top and bottom surfaces will have marks left by the hub plates used to bolt the prop to the engine. And also, if flown for some length of time, the bolt holes will become slightly oval with wear in the thrust plane from the crank shaft.

With kind regards and met vriendelijke groet,

Bob

Bob Gardner
06-01-2015, 04:35 AM
Bart,

Postscript; I see I didn't answer your question about the value of your prop. Your question is simple but the answer is complex. It has three different values, all of which I must emphasise are much less than the values of a WW1 propeller.

If you sold the prop at a conventional auction house (not eBay) in a sale of aeronautical items, it might make up to €900 (which is also $900 as the Euro and USD are at parity). With the auctioneer's charges deducted this would give you about €700. Conversely, if bought at auction, after the auctioneer's commission, it would cost €1130.

If you bought it from a dealer, such as I used to be, he too would pay €1130 at auction. Transport, conservation and repairs would typically cost €500, raising the dealer's costs to €1650. I usually sold at 30% mark up, giving a sale price of around €2200. But a dealer with premises in London or Amsterdam, with much greater running costs, would sell for double or triple this cost, say €5000. However, knowing that a civilian propeller from the 1920's would be difficult to sell, it is not likely that he would buy it in the first place.

Thus:
If you sold it at auction you might receive €700.
If you bought it at the same auction, €1130.
If your prop was stolen or destroyed, the insurance value would be the cost of buying something similar in good condition from a dealer, between €2200 and €5000.

(If you kept it for twelve years and sold it in 2027 when it was 100 years old, it might well make considerably more.)

With kind regards,

Bob

Bob Gardner
06-06-2015, 04:26 PM
Bart,

I don't seem to have had a reply from you about my last post of 1 June?

Bob

Dbahnson
06-06-2015, 09:44 PM
Bart,

I don't seem to have had a reply from you about my last post of 1 June?

Bob

Bob, I feel your frustration with this. A few people here (and you in particular) spend a lot of time and effort to help others with propeller identification, and there is probably no other venue in the world that makes it this easy to ask. Sometimes that effort seems to go unnoticed.

The only consolation is that unlike emails where the same information may be exchanged, at least here it is archived for future searches, and I for one am always grateful for your participation.

Bob Gardner
06-07-2015, 11:50 AM
Thanks Dave for your support. I'm old fashioned. I expect people to recognise my work for them.

One of my replies can typically take two hours to research and cross reference, partially because I'm seventy years old and I do everything slowly. I often have the sensation that our much younger correspondents regards us as an inanimate computer service, not as a conversation between humans. I do sometimes wonder why I bother. On a beautiful June day I'd often prefer to be out bird watching.

Tongue in cheek, perhaps we should have a standard five dollar fee for each question. It would contribute to the enormous personal expense you have made funding this forum and it might reduce our workload. Probably few of our fellow forumites are aware that it has cost you some thousands of dollars.

A friend who sells antique clocks was so annoyed by the number of unsolicited requests for research and for valuations to his website that he introduced a £20 GBP charge, about $30 USD, and to his astonishment the number of queries grew! People were willing to pay and found his advice good value for money.

With kind regards, as ever,

Bob

Steve Maghielse
08-09-2015, 11:54 PM
Hi Bob,
Do you also have a database of U.S. made WW1 aircraft props? My Grandfather made many props for the Government during WW1. I would love to learn more of the History.
Thanks!

Bob Gardner
08-10-2015, 06:25 AM
Steve,

I don't! Only British and German WW1 props. But Dave Bahnson, who founded this site, is the expert on American props. I'll copy this post to a more public page in the forum, as others might also have some advice.

With kind regards,

Bob

eagle770
12-15-2015, 08:40 AM
Hi Bob,

I would be very interested in a copy of your database when it is available. Do you have a publication date in mind yet?

Best Regards

Joe Marsden

Bob Gardner
12-15-2015, 09:21 AM
Joe,

About a month or two. I should think.

Bob

F.D.M
12-15-2015, 09:33 AM
Hello Bob,

How about Part 3 of the German Propeller serie?

Is it going to be released anytime soon?

Best Regards,

Bob Gardner
12-16-2015, 08:26 AM
Greetings FDM,

It's nearly complete. I plan to finish it over the Christmas and New Year quiet period. But proof reading by a German friend will take a month and printing and publishing will take up to two months, so the answer is in the Spring. (I laugh inwardly as I write this, because here in Yorkshire, England the ambient temperature is 60 degrees F and our daffodils are coming out; in other words Spring has already arrived, courtesy of global warming!) So April-May 2016.

With Christmas greetings to all forumites!

Bob

Bart
01-10-2016, 10:04 AM
Thank you Bob! I am so sorry for my late reply. I have been planning to make some pictures of the prop but I had to get it out of storage first and well, time went by. Thank you again for your reply, really dont want to be the guy who comes ask for information, then disappears.

At last, the pictures.

http://i.imgsafe.org/a5ee5f1.jpeg
http://i.imgsafe.org/a45b89a.jpeghttp://i.imgsafe.org/9b5e462.jpeg

bobtheg
01-18-2017, 03:40 PM
A note to my fellow forumites to let you know that in the next twelve months I shall publish in spread-sheet format on CD;

1. My database on German WW1 aircraft propellers, about 1000 lines of data describing maker, diameter and pitch, engine and aircraft type where known.

2. And my database of British WW1 aircraft props, which runs to about 2000 lines of data.

If you have a British or German WW1 prop that you have not told me about (many of you have for which I am most grateful) or if you have any documents from the time which list propellers, please let me know.

With kind regards,

Bob

Dave; could you make this a sticky please.
Hello Bob, Does yor database include props made by S&S Aircraft in Winnipeg, Canada?
If not do you know who would?

Biggles of 266
02-14-2017, 01:19 PM
Bob
I have a prop marked:

L 3610 LH

200HP HISPANO SUIZA

D2590 P2180

Sopwith Dolphin

Note: I also have the cowlings!

Kind regards
Guy

rgmoorejr
07-03-2018, 02:44 AM
Bob:

Good morning from Ramstein Air Base, Germany! I have recently purchased a WWI German propeller...wondered if by chance you might be interested in including it in your database. Here’s the info from the hub:

Jntegral Propellor
N7982
D270 S145
100PS MERC6CYL

I believe this to be a prototype for the D I or D II, as my understanding is the production Mercedes engines had either 180 or 200 hp engines. Your thoughts? Here are a couple of photos...if you’re interested, I can get a better overall photo after the stand is ready.

Cheers, and thanks in advance!

Rick Moore
Ramstein AB, Germany

P.S. A couple of pictures as soon as I figure out how to post them!

Dbahnson
07-03-2018, 07:29 AM
P.S. A couple of pictures as soon as I figure out how to post them!

Click the "Edit" button on the bottom of your post, scroll down, then follow the steps in the attachment to this page. If that doesn't work it's probably because the file is too large. If that's the case you can mail them to dbahnson "at" gmail.com and I'll process them for you.

(Large files may need to be sent one or two at a time.)

Bob Gardner
07-03-2018, 02:43 PM
Rick,

Welcome to the forum.

Your prop is for a German aircraft designed early in WW1 and the serial number is also from early in WW1. I have recorded only one other with your dimensions and engine, 7504. It was succeeded by a prop with a slightly larger pitch, 1500 mm.

It probably dates from 1915 and was used on the LVG BIII, the Alb BII and the Alb Doppeldecker (which probably refers to the Alb BII).

The Mercedes engine for the Flying Troops began life around 1913 in four cylinder form producing 70hp which quickly became a six cylinder of 100ps, for which your prop was made. This was soon developed to produce 120ps.

With kind regards,

Bob

Dbahnson
07-03-2018, 04:03 PM
My brain went off on a tangent, so my reply about the Heine decal was entirely wrong!

Bob

rgmoorejr
07-03-2018, 05:45 PM
Yup...pictures of my Jntegral propeller uploaded. It has the standard Integral sunburst logo with "JPW" in the center. I believe this was for Jntegral Propellerworks.

rgmoorejr
07-03-2018, 05:46 PM
Rick,

Welcome to the forum.

Your prop is for a German aircraft designed early in WW1 and the serial number is also from early in WW1. I have recorded only one other with your dimensions and engine, 7504. It was succeeded by a prop with a slightly larger pitch, 1500 mm.

It probably dates from 1915 and was used on the LVG BIII, the Alb BII and the Alb Doppeldecker (which probably refers to the Alb BII).

The Mercedes engine for the Flying Troops began life around 1913 in four cylinder form producing 70hp which quickly became a six cylinder of 100ps, for which your prop was made. This was soon developed to produce 120ps.

With kind regards,

Bob

Thanks, Bob!!! So very happy to have your insights.

Is your e-database available yet?

Again, thanks, and cheers,
Rick

Dbahnson
07-03-2018, 05:52 PM
Yup...pictures of my Jntegral propeller uploaded. It has the standard Integral sunburst logo with "JPW" in the center. I believe this was for Jntegral Propellerworks.

Beautiful item!

Jlangworthy
07-16-2018, 12:41 PM
Hi Bob, I have a single blade of one of my Grandfather’s planes. He was RNAS. I think it may be from a DH4 but I’m not sure. I have his log book and he broke the last two DH4 props on landing in France so maybe he cut a blade off for a keepsake and had to cut the tip for transporting it. Would like to know your thoughts. There are no numbers on the blade. Jon.

Bob Gardner
07-16-2018, 04:13 PM
Jon,

The line near the tip is a witness mark of where the linen around the tip was cut off.

The blue band indicates a left hand rotation prop. (Red; a RH rotation). These show that the engine could come in either form, and could be used on twin engine aircraft to counter-balance swing on take off.

I only know of this marking on RR Falcon engines, in both 190 and 250hp form, used on Bristol Aircraft such as the F2B Bristol Fighter. But the marking was intended primarily for twin engine aircraft to counter torque swing on take off. I'll do some research tomorrow and come back to you.

With kind regards,

Bob

Jlangworthy
07-16-2018, 04:34 PM
Hi Bob, thanks so much for replying. The tip of the blade is actually cut off, I had it fixed but the glue etc is dry and the tip comes off easily ( I’ll fix it again). There are a couple of Bristols mentioned in his log, BE2E’s and Scouts are mentioned, one rough landing in a Scout losing the prop so it could be this one. Jon

Kafister28
09-03-2018, 02:37 PM
Can you help me identify this WW1 prop
History:
I believed it belonged to an ACE PIOLET IN WW1 , who lived on Campbell Ave in Long Branch,New Jersey.
My aunt and uncle had just purchSed his home in the early 60's and were throwing away the leftover contents in his cellar. My brother and I took the prop and I've kept it all these years.
It has obvious marking of an anchor and US a long with numbers and letters throughout he prop. It has two markings of what seems to be a ships prop also stamped on it
Can I send you a few photos of this prop?
Thank you
Kevin Fister

Kafister28
09-03-2018, 03:04 PM
Please see my pictures attached
Thank you Kevin Fister

Dbahnson
09-03-2018, 03:33 PM
Can I send you a few photos of this prop?
Thank you
Kevin Fister

Try mailing them to dave@woodenpropeller.com and post here when you've sent them. If they don't go through I'll come up with another plan. We need a picture of the entire prop centered on the center bore exactly perpendicular to the face of the hub (to avoid distortion).

The "SE" component of the drawing number refers to "Steam Engineering", which was the branch of the Navy charged with procuring propellers for the flying boat development at the end of WW1. Many of those props were sold off as surplus in the 1920s.

Is the hub notched on one side? It looks from one photo that it might be. If so that would be an indication that it is half of a four-bladed prop.

Kafister28
09-04-2018, 01:29 PM
Thanks for that info. I will email Dave. I tried to post all my pics but the site only posts one at a time

Dbahnson
09-04-2018, 03:14 PM
You should be able to upload several photos. You just need to do them one at a time, but they will all appear on one post. (I think there's a limit of five, but then you can add another post and repeat the process.)

But feel free to send them and I'll upload them.

Dbahnson
09-05-2018, 02:56 PM
I've uploaded a few of the most relevant photos sent to me. They're attached.

The propeller is indeed half of a four-bladed propeller. The notching on the hub combined with a matching notch on a second one they were bolted together within the hub.

It's a very common prop, sold off as surplus in the 1920s and used on a variety of aircraft using a Liberty engine. Most of those were ordered by the Navy (That's where "Steam Engineering" comes into play.) and they have various Navy stamps in addition to the drawing number.

Even though it's half of a prop combination, it's best to keep it in original condition. I've only seen one matching pair of these (consecutive serial numbers) and those, sadly, were sold off separately to two different buyers.

Interestingly, the P5368 and P5364 may refer to the blade numbers that are designed to match each other and/or the blade numbers in between.

Kafister28
09-09-2018, 07:29 PM
That gives me some insight what I have
Wondering if I should try to find its partner or list for sale as is:confused:

Dbahnson
09-09-2018, 07:35 PM
You might spend a lifetime searching for its matching blade and would likely still come up empty. Besides, chances are high that the two blades had significantly different storage in the past 90+ years and as a result their display value would be significantly reduced.

I would just list it for sale.

Littlewood
09-14-2018, 12:17 PM
Hi Bob,

We are trying to research the history behind a wooden propeller which is in our family’s ownership and which we believe dates back to WWI.

The propeller is manufactured by Lucraft & Westcott with the only other markings being “No. 101”, “50 HP” and “A23”. The propeller is 94’’ inches in length with 8 holes in the centre boss. The wood is laminated, not carved from a single piece of timber. We believe it may be made from mahogany.

We would like to find out more about it particular what sort of plane it may have been from

Any information you can provide would be gratefully received.

Regards

Andy Cook

Bob Gardner
09-14-2018, 04:01 PM
Andy,

Many thanks for this data.

Lucraft & Westcott were furniture makers who began to make propellers in June 1915 when they asked their bank, the Capital & Counties Bank, for a £350 overdraft to carry out the first contract for 100 propellers for the Government.

I have recorded five of their props, now six with yours. One of these carries the serial number 15 which is likely to be the earliest in existence.

Ah! My supper is ready; more will follow tomorrow.
With kind regards,

Bob

Bob Gardner
09-15-2018, 09:04 AM
Andy,

To continue;

Your data might be incomplete.

The drawing number A23 relates to WW1 Vickers aircraft. I have recorded one prop, besides yours, which was for a 110hp Clerget engine on the Vickers FB19 Mk 2, which was a rare fighter aircraft from 1916. Few were made. It had a prop of 6ft 6ins diameter whereas yours is 7ft 10ins.

So your prop comes from something entirely different.

One possibility is from an early biplane from 1913 which used 50hp engines. These were still in use as training machines in 1915.

A second possibility is that the data on your prop is only partially readable.

L & W made many props for naval aircraft. One drawing number was AD543 for a 90hp Curtiss OX2 aircraft. After decades of squinting at almost unreadable data on WW1 props I can see that AD23 could be constructed from the drg no. AD543. And 50hp might be read from the 90hp Curtiss OX2 engine.

Please advise if you come up with any new information.

With kind regards,

Bob