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testguy
01-18-2014, 08:40 AM
I purchased this item at an estate sale in Ottawa. The story I got was that the recipient was a high placed govt. employee involved in procurement during WWII.
The clock was gifted to the recipient from S & S Aircraft Ltd. and was shipped to his home in Ottawa in this wooden crate.
Perhaps someone can shed more light on what I've got.
Many thanks,
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-18-2014, 11:10 AM
Hello from Dennis in Seattle, welcome to the forum.

First of all, let me say how much I appreciate what you have purchased, as I own two of the S & S props that were made for avro ansons. That is obviously a prop that didnt pass inspection or what ever and was simply used to make the presentation and a nice home for the clock.

What is more rare than the piece itself, is the box with the label on it. When you can, please take a very good highly detailed digital picture of the label. The reason being is, that there just isnt hardly any information left at all of the S & S manufacturing company. Granted, there wont be much to be gleaned from just the lable, but to me, its a very interesting element that hasnt surfaced before.

Let me be the first to say outright, what you have isnt a rare piece and its value isnt high in regards to what props from S & S are worth as a full prop, most would agree here on that element. This isnt to devalue your purchase, its just the facts. As a collector of S & S products, I would be interested in purchasing the piece and the box it came in from you. I will include my business card with the contact information. Its not important to me that the clock actually operates.

Please get in touch with me so that we may have a discussion about your piece.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington.

Dave
01-18-2014, 02:40 PM
One other observation - the decal placement is not typical for S&S propellers. It certainly suggests that this may have been done at the factory where decals were readily available, and perhaps it was varnished there as well.

Also, assuming that there is no stamped information on the hub, it further suggests that this was not a prop that completed the manufacturing process, which would not be unusual in any similar process using wood with all its unpredictabilities.

My question would be whether this was a one-time factory project or perhaps one of several or many that were made using otherwise discardable portions of propellers.

Like Dennis says, we wish we knew more about the company. They produced a lot of wooden propellers for a lot of different aircraft.

Determined
01-18-2014, 03:57 PM
Hi Dennis
Sounds llike you know about S&S propellers do you have any knowledge regarding the numbering system. DRG ### and or serial to year info?
I have a S&S prop I believe was made for a snowplane that I would like to put to use but it would require an adaptor or redrilling and I am hesitant to do that to it. DRG. 420 SER. Y505 PIT. 28.9
Dave

D.Hicklin
01-18-2014, 08:37 PM
Hey Dave.

Thank you for your post.

First of all, on this forum, you will do far better with Dave, and Lamar and Bob Gardener when it comes to nomenclature and various list's of design numbers and applications. Those gentlemen have far more resources at thier disposal than I.

For me, as a person that has been around the aviation world and as a artist that has a certain eye for the collectable items, suffice it to say that S & S props and anything to do with them is purely an aqquired taste I assure you.

These props are NOT rare nor are they in the realm of high value such as WW1 props from europe. They just happen to be of high quality in the workmanship that created them.

What I do know is what I like, and it seems that when these props surface from time to time, its always interesting to me to see what they go for price wise. Purely as art pieces used in kinetic sculpture, they are the right size and heft and weight to be incorporated in various forms of sculpture. They also look great as static wall hangings.

They are relatively cheap and are well built and can handle being shipped with out a spendy crate. What I will advise you on is this. Do not redrill it or try to use it for something that it wasnt made for. The prop itself has existed this long with out losing its patina or its integrity, and in my opionion, it should be left that way, but I am biased no doubt.

Go ahead and post some high quality pictures of your prop so that I and others can get a good look at it to give a better opinion of what it is.

I hope that is helpful to you.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Determined
01-19-2014, 01:33 AM
Hi Dennis
Thanks for the reply.
I posted photos of the prop back in June and it did not yield much info. was hoping you may have come across some info when researching your S+S propellers.
As far as using it for something it wasn't made for, I actually want to use it on a vintage 1940's snowplane I am restoring.
A little info I can share on S+S Aircraft comes from a book called "As the Snow Flies" it has a wealth of information on snowplanes and some info on early prop makers.
S+S Aircraft was on Watt Street in Winnipeg owned by Short and Smith.
Paul Strom built over 500 propellers and several snowplanes during the 30's and 40's at his facility at Watrous Saskatchewan.
In 1940 Paul moved to Winnipeg and worked for S+S as shop foreman then chief inspector.
My machine was made by Fudge industries who made there own propellers but when aircraft engines were installed on some of these machines suppliers varied.
This machine has an old Franklin 150 on it, my options are;
1- I know where I can get my hands on a factory undrilled adjustable pitch hub to fit to this engine then find somebody to make blades for it.
2-Get a complete propeller custom made for it.
3-Modify this propeller or mounting hub to fit this engine.
4-Luck out and find a useable pusher propeller with the right pitch and bolt pattern. [Not holding my breath on this option]
Dave

testguy
01-19-2014, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the responses.

From Dennis' request, I have posted a pic of the shipping label.

I collect clocks, and based on what I have here, I am sure the item was built by S & S Aircraft as a clock, and given to an influential Canadian Government employee as a thank you for their support in obtaining government contracts.

The shipping case is manufactured from beautiful maple wood which I would classify as furniture grade. (I'm no expert)
The shipping case label is FROM: S & S Aircraft and To: Mr. H.S. Dixon.

As Dave said in his post, the S & S Aircraft decals on the clock are not in the usual place for a propeller, which helps confirm my belief the clock was purpose made as a gift.

Regards,
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-19-2014, 03:11 PM
Thanks Brian for getting back to me.

I just wanted to clarify the wording in your post. As I am interested in the various clocks made by telechron corporation, I researched first to make sure that the clock you have is made by sessions and NOT by S & S. That was easy enough.

The selected wood indeed was something that S & S chose as a way to make a presentation, the clock, I assume happened to be the clock of choice purely by size.

Thank you very much for the close up shot of the label, its greatly appreciated.

May I inquire as to the amount you paid for the piece with box at the estate sale, and if the sessions clock which is incorporated into it is more important to you that the piece and the box, perhaps you might be interested in selling me the piece and the box minus the clock, I can always provide my own clock to complete the piece. Something to ponder indeed.

Sincerely
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

testguy
01-19-2014, 04:23 PM
Dennis, The sessions clock is an common electric model,not working, and missing its glass. I purchased the propeller clock and box as an interesting, historic World War 2 relic. The fact is that the clock was purpose made by the propeller manufacturer and gifted to a representative of an important customer (Canadian Govt.)I don't know if the clock was displayed at the owners home or office, but would have served as a reminder to him of the S&S aircraft company. The sessions clock on it's own has no value, while I believe the propeller clock and shipping case has some value.
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-19-2014, 05:01 PM
So Brian, I assume we are on the same page that the clock ( the sessions clock mounted in the wood ) ISNT truly made by S & S, as they were not manufacturing clocks or movements, that part of your post I am very clear on, but when you say ( propeller clock, ) to me that is the same as the sessions clock. I could be wrong here, but I assume that the particular clock that is mounted on the wood hub, WASNT made expressely for S & S by sessions purely for such presentations, it would not have been cost effective.

Also to clear up the wording on the post with the close up of the label, you stated " the decals on the clock ", this is misleading as well, as its very clear that there are NO decals on the clock itself, but they are on the wood that is connected to the center hub in a position that isnt the usual placement on a full prop. Splitting hairs indeed, but its paramount to be accurate when in discussion about this piece. The wood and the hub are NOT a clock, only the clock made by sessions IS a clock! The steel bezel with the hex head bolts are not a clock either!

I pretty much figured that the clock was missing its glass face and that it isnt in working order, again as stated, the clock isnt that important to me either as it has no real value. We share the same interests in the wooden hub and the box it came in as a collectable set of pieces.

So with that clarification in mind, are you interested in selling the hub and box it came in, either minus the clock or with it? Seeing how the clock isnt working and is missing the glass face, that should have some relevent effect on the selling value if we get to that in future posts and conversations. Seeing how I have two S & S props already, the hub and the box would make a great addition to what I have already.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

testguy
01-19-2014, 08:22 PM
Dennis,
As previously mentioned, I am a clock collector and in our world a clock consists of a clock movement (in this case the Sessions Electric Clock movement), as well as a clock case (in this case the propeller hub).
I appreciate your interest, but I want to keep the clock installed in the propeller and in the shipping case all together in my collection for now.
Best regards,
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-20-2014, 05:53 AM
Hey Brian.

Now that we have the terminology finally settled, I have one further question for you about this piece.

Being that I go to various swap meets and flea markets and occasional estate sales, I have a fair idea of what that piece was worth purely in the realm of it being a discovery and more often than not, the people that had it, didnt know what it was and didnt have any idea of what price to put on it.

Being that at this point you have choosen to keep it, I am very curious what the price was that you paid for it, and what the original price was on it, that perhaps you were able to haggle with the owners, to get it down to a lower price.

Purely as an example, with all of the considerartions of non working elements and missing glass, had I seen it on a table at the portland swap meet and if it had a price tag of $100.00 on it, I would have beaten them down to $75.00 or $60.00, and if it was displayed with no price on it, I would have started at $50.00 and stopped at $100.00

So I am curious to see how close I was, or did you get lucky and get it for next to nothing?

If at some point, that you decide to sell the piece and the box, please consider selling it to me, as what you have would fit nicely with my two other S & S props.

Thank you for your time, its greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

testguy
01-20-2014, 04:55 PM
Dennis,
The estate sale asking price was $450. and I paid some what less. However, I paid more than I wanted because another buyer (dealer) was willing to pay more than the asking price. In Ottawa, we have several museums including the Aviation Museum, the Science and Technology Museum, The War Museum and the Canadian Clock Museum. I am going to bring the propeller clock and shipping crate to our next NAWCC regional meeting, and get it appraised by the curator of the Canadian Clock Museum. I thing it is interesting enough that a museum may want it.
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-20-2014, 08:19 PM
Hey Brian.

Isnt it amazing the values we put on various objects. $450.00 is usually what one of the full S & S props are worth up to about $600.00 it varies per deal and per distance when haggling over the freight.

Who would have thought that such a piece would command a high asking price like that. But when in slight competition with another buyer with deep pockets right next to you, it can have an effect that is hard to cope with.

The clock would have had to work, with a full glass face to get $250.00 to $275.00 out of me if I were there. Past that figure, it tends to get a bit silly over a piece that isnt a prop.


I hope you didnt go over $300.00 for it, but no big deal, it has a new home now. If you can, I would like a link to the canadian clock museum, that sounds like an interesting venue.

Well this has been a very interesting informative lesson in the fine art of found objects connected with the S & S firm of winnipeg. A piece like that is indeed a great find. Well done sir.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington.

testguy
01-20-2014, 08:35 PM
Dennis,
The link to the Canadian Clock Museum is www.canclockmuseum.ca
Brian

D.Hicklin
01-20-2014, 08:51 PM
Thanks for the link brian, its greatly appreciated.

Dennis.