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View Full Version : Curtiss JN4C - "Jenny" Paragon Propellor For Sale


Kirk
08-28-2012, 10:52 PM
Made of oak, scimitar shape, hub indentation and other markings indicate it was removed from an actual aircraft of the period, a point underscored by the fact that it's a propeller which must have been broken during a crash or ground loop. It comprises the hub and one blade only. I would characterize its condition as 7/10. There is a crack near the tip which I've chosen to not strengthen with glue.

Markings:
8'3" x 5.00
RIGHT HAND
259
AID C2 within circle (can't clearly read the "C2")
CURTISS(?) 2 within rectangle (can clearly read "C" and "2", not the rest)

I have an idea what a full Curtiss Jenny Paragon propeller is worth but research hasn't provided me a value of a propeller such as this.

It's a nice piece and actually easier to display than a full prop. Propeller is located in Toronto, Canada. I'm open to offers for a quick sale.


http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/IMG_1643.jpg http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/IMG_1621.jpg http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/IMG_1629.jpg http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/IMG_1609.jpg http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/IMG_1597_2.jpg

Dave
08-29-2012, 09:57 PM
It's a shame that the prop was damaged. That's a very collectible and sought after model, even though it was produced in fairly large numbers.

D.Hicklin
08-31-2012, 01:20 AM
I agree with dave, such a shame that this prop was damaged, that being said, I am interested in purchasing your single blade as is. Please get in touch with me as my information is enclosed. Thanks for posting the picture.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington.

Kirk
08-31-2012, 12:30 PM
From Wikipedia under 'Barnstorming' is this photo titled 'Curtiss JN-4 in flight over Central Ontario, circa 1918'. Coincidentally I bought the prop in the late seventies in the small town of Creemore in Central Ontario. Barnstorming and flying circuses were common here.
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/Ontario.jpg

There really isn't much (or any) question or concern about the use of the prop on a JN4. You won't be able to connect it to a specific airplane or pilot.

The only problem with it is that half of it is missing . . .

I see the prop more as half-full than half-empty. :)

D.Hicklin
08-31-2012, 09:04 PM
please get in touch with me at my cell number,
206 227 2503, I would like to purchase your damaged prop as is. Lets discuss price and shipping when you have time.

Sincerely,
J. Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington
206 227 2503

Kirk
09-01-2012, 03:25 PM
Got your message Dennis. Email sent.

Although damaged and salvaged from some mishap or other, I still value the propeller as a well preserved piece of aviation history: a damaged WW I propeller that survived. Thankfully someone had the presence of mind to round off the hub and preserve what they could all those years ago rather than scrapping it or using as firewood. Hard to believe I've enjoyed it myself for more than thirty of those ninety some years.

D.Hicklin
09-02-2012, 10:48 AM
Hey Dave, as you can see, this is a unique piece, but that being said, regardless of its patina and age, its still 1/2 half of a prop that had been damaged. I am curious what you think would be a fair value for this piece and taking into consideration of the seller and buyer splitting the cost of shipping. I have an idea of its value, but am always interested what the rest of the forum is thinking in regards to pieces such as this. Any input from the global audience is greatly appreciated.

Sincerely,
J. Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

MWP_Lamar
09-02-2012, 11:35 AM
To me it's a piece of a damaged prop albeit in apparently good condition. There are lots of WW-I era props that have survived whole and in good shape. Anyway, to me, this is a fragment definitely worth preserving but not worth much money.

That's my two pence.

Lamar

Kirk
09-02-2012, 01:04 PM
For curiosity's sake, shipping expenses aside, what's the approximate value of a complete Paragon JN-4 prop with decals intact and a similar level of finish? Thanks.

Dave
09-03-2012, 08:32 AM
The scimitar shaped Paragon seems to be a particularly desirable collectible, and I would guess that one in excellent condition is worth something in the $3000 range. Personally, I think a single blade is only worth about a tenth of that value, if that.

D.Hicklin
09-03-2012, 12:12 PM
Thanks Dave and Lamar, your input is greatly appreciated. With out getting into the details, I was spot on in my personal evaluation of Kirks 1/2 paragon propeller. I am always amazed at what percieved values are placed on fragments of vintage "airscrews", if intact, then the prices are justified, but if not complete, then the value drops dramatically. You do notice how you never see just 1/2 half of a 59 Mercedes Benze 300 SL gullwing coupe being offered at Barrett-Jacksons auction now do you?

Sincerely,
J. Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Dave
09-03-2012, 12:50 PM
There is something "unsightly" about seeing half of an item that derives its elegance from the whole, as propellers do. I think that's particularly true of this specfic propeller, which when intact has a graceful and balanced compound curve that's almost sensuous to the eye. I would almost rather see the hub removed and the decal saved on a block of the blade as a display item.





http://woodenpropeller.com/forumvB/attachment.php?attachmentid=2961&stc=1&d=1346687204












.

Kirk
09-03-2012, 01:29 PM
Thanks Dave and Lamar, your input is greatly appreciated. With out getting into the details, I was spot on in my personal evaluation of Kirks 1/2 paragon propeller. I am always amazed at what percieved values are placed on fragments of vintage "airscrews", if intact, then the prices are justified, but if not complete, then the value drops dramatically. You do notice how you never see just 1/2 half of a 59 Mercedes Benze 300 SL gullwing coupe being offered at Barrett-Jacksons auction now do you?

Sincerely,
J. Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Dennis, with all due respect, your offer $200 less me paying $100 for half of shipping costs plus donating my time and materials to package and deliver it to the shipper amounts to a net loss to me of at least $200. Not a good deal for me.

To pursue your Barrett-Jackson analogy a bit further, a body and motor with matching serial numbers from an historic vehicle is actually worth a lot of money. You don't see them at Barrett-Jackson but a market exists.

I know my prop is not universally appreciated. I've listed it for sale locally (no shipping) and will happily keep it if it doesn't sell.

Thanks everyone for your input. :)

D.Hicklin
09-03-2012, 02:39 PM
Hey Kirk, perhaps a bit of clarification about the offer and splitting the shipping. The original offer was for $200.00 and then sharing the shipping cost ( 1/2 ) which I estimated to be $100.00 to $185.00 that is considering the distance from your area ( Toronto ) to seattle. As stated, it doesnt need an exotic crate, just the bubble wrap and cardboard sheathing I described. Which is very cheap cost wise. Plus no insurance, as this isnt a piece that is rare, it is what it is. Tell you what, the offer still stands for $200.00, lets see what the actual cost of shipping is, and if its not over $120.00, then I will bear the cost of shipping. Anything past that, and its really not a viable sitution since the cost for 1/2 of a prop sails past logic quickly.

Your correct about the 300 SL gull wing being offered at Barrett - Jackson, its not the type of auction that attracts that kind of automobile. You see them at places like Christies, and Goodings and company at places like Pebble beach, and Amelia Island, occasionally at retromobile in Paris as well.

But we are drifing off topic here.

The 1/2 of a paragon is worth what ever someone will pay for it, my offer of $200.00 for it, is fair and it appears that others on this forums opinions are in line with that amount. Purely out of curiosity, I would like to know what the final sale total is if it indeed does get sold. Its been a pleasure to have an open dialog with you via this forum.

Sincerely,
J. Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Kirk
10-02-2012, 11:25 AM
On eBay I discovered a refinished "Nieuport 12 with a BR 2 Rotary engine used around 1917" half propeller with 28 bids which sold for $740. Wow!

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b211/pjbotms/Paragon%20Propeller/PROPsoldEBAY.jpg

D.Hicklin
10-03-2012, 08:00 AM
You know Kirk, E bay has always been a daily mystery, living proof that on any given day, any given piece will sell for what ever the public will shell out for it. That being said, it will be interesting to see if you can get even half of that or a third of that for your lovely paragon half blade. Its all a crap shoot when it comes to e bay. I think most would agree with me on this element, someone had deep pockets for that piece that you found on e bay as a sold piece, go for it, list it, you might get lucky and get the big bucks for it! I shall just sit on the sidelines and see how it does. I noticed the shipping price was a bit low considering what the person paid for it, but that is a fluxuant element as well. Thanks for the post.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin

pmdec
10-03-2012, 08:20 PM
Hi Kirk and Dennis,

About the half prop sold on eBay: IMHO, it is NOT from WW1, because if the prop was to be fitted on a BR2 engine, it is not for Nieuport 12, which used a 110HP Clerget. Even another engine was fitted to a Nieuport 12, a BR2 seems to me having too much power: 230HP for the initial engine, and 245 for a later variant.
So... could "N 12", as read by the seller, be "Ni 2"? And therefore a marking for the Nieuport Nightjar, which was developed from the Nieuport Nighthawk (and so, the digit "2"). In this case, the prop is not from WW1 era, but from 1921-1924!
Another clue for that: the markings "2780" and "2920" areprobably diameter and pitch. From the picture beside the lady, 2780 is the diameter (109"1/2) and 2920 (~115") the pitch. As the rotary engine could not be geared, 115" (even 109 if the data are reversed) is too a high pitch for a Nieuport 12.

Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bentley_BR2 . What do you think?

And yes, Dennis, prices on eBay are very ... curious ones! But, perhaps, the buyer did want an antique sign and had nothing to do with a WW1 prop?

Regards,
PM

Dave
10-03-2012, 10:55 PM
And yes, Dennis, prices on eBay are very ... curious ones! But, perhaps, the buyer did want an antique sign and had nothing to do with a WW1 prop?

Regards,
PM

That's my bet. He was buying a sign, not a propeller.

MWP_Lamar
10-04-2012, 10:50 AM
My bet, too. A Google search yielded the fact that Boyer's airport was one of the very first general aviation airports established in Kentucky. I can say that memorabilia from local GA airports around me go for premium prices not likely to be realized in another state.

Lamar

D.Hicklin
10-04-2012, 07:02 PM
Thanks PM and Dave and Lamar. Always a pleasure to see how the rest of the forum see's this. Indeed, the buyer was after it purely for the element of it being a sign and NOT a half of a prop, that is clearly evident. But all that being said, still this is a great forum to see such dialog from all over the globe on vintage " airscrews ". Many thanks to all that have participated. Kirk, the offer still stands, you can get a quick $200.00 from me for your paragon half blade, and I will pay the full cost of shipping.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Kirk
11-18-2012, 05:17 PM
Sold it to a very happy buyer as a Christmas gift for a loved one. Great price and going to a new home where it's greatly appreciated for its form and its history. Super result! :)

D.Hicklin
11-19-2012, 06:43 AM
So Kirk, indeed, the half blade got sold, congratulations! I am curious what the final price was including the shipping, so that I can use this information purely as a reference when it comes to this type of sale on this type of half blade. Last time we corresponded, you were firm on your price of $400.00 and it was up in the air as to who would bear the full cost of shipping. Again, that was an elegant piece of wood, I am glad it went to a person that could appreciate it.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington.

tweesdad
11-23-2012, 04:13 PM
Interesting discussion and I for one appreciate the candor of all parties. Some of us cannot afford a multi-thousand dollar price tag, so single blades or even hubs are often the only way to own and enjoy such a beautiful piece of aviation history.

This blade was slightly outside my scope of historical interest but otherwise I would have offered $300-$350 plus shared shipping for it, and been very happy with the deal. I am glad it will go to an appreciative home.

D.Hicklin
11-24-2012, 07:45 AM
As you can see, this forum is a magnificent arena of conversation and exchange of view points on what items are worth, or thier percieved value. I offer up this picture to show how fluxuent prices can be for items of this nature.

Enclosed is a picture of a hamilton standard prop blade from a three bladed prop that was off of possibly a DC 3, but that isnt issue here, the price for it is listed at $280.00, with haggling, I now have the owner down to $230.00, which is more than fair. Granted, its not wood, nor is it rare, its just a great piece that is in good shape even though its a condemmed piece that isnt airworthy.


In the same consignment house where this lives currently, in another show case is a metal prop blade that isnt from a tripple bladed prop, it isnt polished, its in bad shape, it has a hole drilled mid way through the blade with a paltry clock in it, and clearly, a poorly made decal mounted the wrong way on it, original price was at $1000.00 marked down to $750.00, and its been in that case for over a year now.

I am glad that kirk sold his half blade to a very happy buyer, regardless of the price he got for it. That being said, in this arena of new material surfacing daily around the globe, once again, these pieces are worth what ever one is willing to shell out on it on any given day, literally a roll of the dice.

To me, that is the fun and the challenge of sites like this one, that give us all a great way to participate as either viewers, or buyer and sellers, or just friendly input to various questions posed by the masses.

The fun continues.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington

Kirk
08-22-2013, 12:02 AM
I got $600 cash. The buyer gave it to her partner as a Christmas gift. :)

D.Hicklin
08-25-2013, 03:02 PM
Bravo Kirk, indeed it brought a lot more than anyone would have imagined. As stated before, it all depends on the seller and the buyer, so it still makes sense that any particular thing for sale is worth what ever a particular person will pay for it, that particular day. Auction houses have proven this over and over for hundreds of years. As well as pawn shops too!

That being said, I am still amazed at the variety of rare and not so rare wooden "airscrews " that surfaces on this site daily, thanks to Dave for keeping this great website going. And thanks to all worldwide who contribute a wealth of information and photos.

Sincerely,
Dennis Hicklin
Seattle Washington