View Full Version : French Caudron G3 102" WWI Propeller

05-09-2012, 03:56 PM
Beautiful Caudron G3 biplane propeller in original unrefinished condition. Mixed wood (top and bottom laminations appear to be oak, 3 center laminations are mahogany). The 8 bolt holes match the LeRhone 80Hp Radial. We believe the manufacturer to be Waring & Gillow of Paris and the date of construction around 1915.
ENGRAVINGS: Serie No 245 No 28 CG3 RH80 Serie 245 12 AEOR (2 small inspection stamps on hub and 1 faint circular stamp down 1 blade)
Very nice condition, very slight delamination at the hub, original finish, a minor tip repair that appears original. A rare and wonderfull piece of French aviation art.
$2700+ $120 for shipping in the US (I will ship worldwide, please contact me for a quote)
Inquiries and additional info to msprior01@gmail.com Thanks, Scott

05-13-2012, 04:19 PM
Could you post pictures of the two sides of the hub (with readable markings) and of the stamp?

05-14-2012, 12:39 PM
Here are a few more pics of the hub and engravings.

05-14-2012, 04:58 PM

Thanks for the pictures.

I can't read all markings on the fourth one (IMG_2980.jpg), but what I see on this one and the others partially contradicts what have been said about this prop:

Are you sure there is a "12" before a square stamp under the "Rh 80"? Or a "l2" (small L and 2)?

Prop for a Caudron G3 fitted with a Le Rhône 80HP engine, mixed wood and minor repair are okay (except top and bottom laminations seems to be elm and not oak). "SERIE 245 N°28" are in perfect accordance with this (it is a well known Régy design, made for G3 fitted with 100HP Anzani, and, after 1917, with different brands of 80HP engines for use in air schools).

But for date of construction and maker, I don't agree: the prop was made by Régy (why Waring and Gillow???) and no exact date can be known because the prop as been repaired between early 1918 and 1921: original varnish and markings by Régy have been sanded down (some remnants on IMG_2980).
People who repaired the prop marked it again (with the same serial and number, as prescribed), applied a brown-red varnish and have the prop approved again. This airworthy stamp can't be under the new varnish.

So, for the information of visitors of this forum, it has to be told that the varnish which is now on the prop can't be the original one nor the one from the old repair.


05-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Dear PM, Here are some answers to questions that you raise.
1. I'm not sure if it is a L or a 1 after the RH80
2. Elm instead of Oak sounds right
3. As for the age and manufacturer I'm following a posting of a propeller that Dave had on the site from his personal collection. It was listed as a Waring and Gillow and 1915 manufacture date (same dimensions, mixed wood species, engravings, etc.). Perhaps Dave is wrong as well.
I'm just trying to present this propeller as truthfully as I can.

05-14-2012, 07:21 PM
Here is the link to the propeller that I am basing the manufacturer and age upon. Scott

05-14-2012, 08:21 PM
Hi Scott,

Dave is not wrong about its Waring & Gillow prop ( http://woodenpropeller.com/Caudron_G3.html ). "Circa 1915" could be the original design date. It could not be the construction date, because first known contract for props made by Waring & Gillow is June 1917. The pictures are not large enough to see if the prop has been refinished or not.

But it don't mean that Serial 245 were all made by them. For example, this serial has been made by Société l'Aéronautique ( http://woodenpropeller.com/clas05.html ).

Props with mixed woods including mahogany could only be used on air school aircrafts.
Régy serial 245 was first approved for Caudron G3 with Anzani 100HP engines, and only by the end of 1917 (or beginning 1918) approved for Caudron G3 with Le Rhône or Clerget 80HP (and only for air school use). All this from "official papers" from 1917 to 1919.

Yours had been made by Régy because it has the round Régy stamp at the foot of a blade (originally one at each foot, but the other sanded down, when first repaired or later).


05-14-2012, 08:51 PM
Dear PM, Thanks for the additional info. Regarding the circular stamp at the foot of the blade, my propeller has a single circular stamp. If you look closely at Dave's propeller it also has a single circular stamp. He also has a Regy C3 propeller with the red paint finish. It don't believe this propeller ever had the red Regy paint.

05-15-2012, 09:05 AM
Hi Scott,

I agree there is a very faint possibility your prop has been made, first state, by Waring & Gillow: if W & G had a round stamp like the Régy one. In this case, the prop had to be made in late 1917 or later because W & G did not became authorized propeller makers before the end of first half of 1917.
About Bahnson W & G serial 245, "A2" on the same side than serial and prop number tells us the prop has been made in or after the second half of 1917 and it is in original state (not repaired). And there are the decals: they read "Waring et Gillow – PARIS" and inside "HELICES – LICENSE REGY" ("LICENSE", because Régy was the original designer of serial 245). It is possible the design was from 1915.

Anyway, it doesn't change the story of your propeller:
- It was made at an unknown date (unknown because original alphanumeric code has been sanded down when repaired).
- It had a dent and become repaired (1st picture).
- When repair was made, the old markings and old stamps were partially sanded down and the prop was varnished with the "legal" red-brown mixture.
- This repair has to be done after first half of 1917: "l2" ("12" is impossible on this prop) on the same side than aircraft and engine code. The prop was engraved again (blue markings). Remnants are clearly visible on your pictures, and old markings remnants are filled with red-brown varnish (red marking on the picture). After varnishing, the prop was stamped again (yellow square). This stamp is done after varnishing and has to contain faint letters in the square and a sign outside (like the two ones on the flat side of the hub, but with a different sign). The stamp on your prop is under the transparent varnish and the sign no more visible because it was impressed in the red-brown varnish.
- It seems (not sure, depend of how the prop was strip of its varnish) the prop was not fitted again on an aircraft (no visible plates marks).
- Later (between 1918 and … 2012! but I think nearer 2012 than 1918…), the prop was strip of its varnish, with some precautions near the markings (which leave to old varnish remnants: red areas on the 2nd picture) , and varnish again with transparent mixture.
- Present state: transparent varnish without any sign of crack or aging, no decal, remnants of red-brown varnish near the markings, too faint SFA square stamp under the varnish.


PS:This will be my last post in this thread. If you think I am not right, it is to you. I will not argue about stamps anymore until our props collection will be complete, as we don't want to see some people making false markings with the right codes.

05-15-2012, 09:32 AM

05-15-2012, 08:14 PM
I'm nearly certain that the Waring and Gillow prop is entirel original and has not been refinished or altered. I agree that Scott's prop almost certainly is not in original condition, although it's possible that it was refinished many years ago and looks "old" in that respect. To my knowledge both Regy and Waring and Gillow used decals, and their absence further supports the contention that it has been refinished, either with sandpaper or varnish stripper, then revarnished.

06-01-2012, 04:52 AM
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